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  • Income and Duration

    Hello everyone,
    My first post here. This is a great forum! I have been reading posts here trying to educate myself as much as I can.

    Me (male) and my STBX are currently working on separation agreement through our lawyers who will be exchanging financial statements soon. My first question is regarding my income. I have fixed salary and on top of that I have had a lot of overtime in last 3 years. The overtime, however will disappear in few months and my income will be pretty much my base salary. In your experiences, how do they deal with this? Do they figure out some kind of average or am I able to go with base salary because overtime will not be there anymore? Also do lawyers exchange supporting documents when they exchange financial statements?

    Second question is regarding duration of marriage. We did not start living together until 2 years after we got married...because I was in another country and had to immigrate. What would be the 'start' date?

  • #2
    In the different acts I read they refer years married - never years married and not living together. Married is married. They do add the years you live together before getting married but that is not your situation.


    The agreement - starts with the Application for divorce and then the other's reply - both have the 13.1 financial disclosure that you mention. Everything at it's own time - the 13.1 is just your declaration, you put your numbers in and swear to them - no supporting documents are required at that time. Down the road should either of you question each others numbers or maybe just a few of them - the proof will be demanded at that time. The proof should match your declaration if you are telling the truth so just make sure you do have them ready to supply when you are asked for them.


    Part of my issue is I do have medical problems so I have already supplied my lawyer with the proof to the numbers I made on my declaration - he is taking the extra step to grill me to ensure I am doing it right - so later on I will not be caught "down the road" with any mistakes. All my numbers are right on, the proof is there in the statements and at least for me, this part is done.

    As far as you declared income, they go by your last year's income, for those who fluctuate - they will go by the average of the last three years. You would have a case or a call if you know for sure you will go down to only your base salary... but if you and your ex agree on something, whatever it is you agree on - that is the battle and the war. Use what you both agree on, I personally think this what your lawyers would accept and the court if it ever got that far. Good for you both if you are able to come to fair agreement without all the hours and money going to the lawyers and the system.

    Comment


    • #3
      Do you have any documentation from your employer confirming that there will be few opportunities for overtime in the future? That would help you to consolidate your income at the base level, despite the history of overtime. Maybe they will write a letter for you.

      Comment


      • #4
        ddol1, yes thats what I thought that it would be the marriage date. And that would make it 10 years (sucks...).

        Rioe, yes I have already got a letter from my company stating that overtime will disappear around september. When I discussed this issue with my lawyer, he said the same thing to get a letter from my company which I did, so hopefully we can go with base salary.

        As far as the last 3 years are,

        2009
        base salary: 50,000
        total income: 60,000

        2010:
        base salary: 53,000
        total income: 73,000

        2011:
        base salary: 66,000 ( (this is because I got promotion and some income adjustment)
        total income: 83,000

        As you can see there was a lot of overtime. Even if they take an average of last 3 years, it's still much better than using just last year's income but it's still would be a lot more than my base. The average would be;

        (60,000 + 73,000 + 83,000) / 3 = 72,000

        The total incomes I mentioned are from line 150 of Notice of Assessments..Is that correct or should it be from line 236 (total net income)?

        Now what about her income now? Her income was up and down as well (not because of overtime but because she didn't really want to work. She had odd jobs here and there).

        2009: 10,000
        2010: 7,000
        2011: 16,000

        And her 2012 year to date income indicates that her 2012 total income would be around 16,000 as well. So would they apply same formula to her income? taking average? which would not make sense because she is the recipient and her previous income 'should not really matter'. I'm not trying to sound stupid here, just expressing what I think and feel.

        Comment


        • #5
          To play the "devil's advocate" beware that you could be imputed with the higher amount.... my lawyer would argue that you have been willing and able to put in more hours of work.... in absence of overtime opportunity provided from your current employer, and based on your willingness to work more hours, you could easily get a second job and keep your income level.

          Sucks but be prepared. Eyebrows would definitely be raised if your decrease in income conveniently coincides with time you will be starting to pay spousal. My ex tried that but it didn't wash even with a letter.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by arabian View Post
            To play the "devil's advocate" beware that you could be imputed with the higher amount.... my lawyer would argue that you have been willing and able to put in more hours of work.... in absence of overtime opportunity provided from your current employer, and based on your willingness to work more hours, you could easily get a second job and keep your income level.

            Sucks but be prepared. Eyebrows would definitely be raised if your decrease in income conveniently coincides with time you will be starting to pay spousal. My ex tried that but it didn't wash even with a letter.
            Thanks for your insight. I know the eyeborws might be raised if my income 'decrease' coincides with the spousal support time, but the thing is that in my case it's definitely the reality. Like I said my employer already provided the letter because everyone at work knows about the overtime situation (manufacturing industry). And the overtime I work is mandatory not willingly. Second, it's not really a decrease, it's more of that my income would be back to 'normal'. Also, I have no problem providing my tax return every year so they can see what I really made.

            It's funny (dont know what else to say about it) that I might be 'forced' to work a 2nd job to support someone who never wanted to better her education or get a better job (or even get a full time job) and she had all the time and opportunity in the world (no kids, no other responsibility what so ever).

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by arabian View Post
              To play the "devil's advocate" beware that you could be imputed with the higher amount.... my lawyer would argue that you have been willing and able to put in more hours of work.... in absence of overtime opportunity provided from your current employer, and based on your willingness to work more hours, you could easily get a second job and keep your income level.

              Sucks but be prepared. Eyebrows would definitely be raised if your decrease in income conveniently coincides with time you will be starting to pay spousal. My ex tried that but it didn't wash even with a letter.
              Your ex tried what? To decide for himself how much he should work and you felt it was your place to dictate that?

              Comment


              • #8
                Actually it was the judge that dictated it. Letters projecting income are not commonly used when determining self-employment income. Facts speak for themselves.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by arabian View Post
                  Actually it was the judge that dictated it. Letters projecting income are not commonly used when determining self-employment income. Facts speak for themselves.
                  If you are talking about self-employment then that might be a different story. I'm full time permanent employee.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It probably works out in the wash anyhow with an annual reassessment.

                    Depending upon the wording in your agreement, SS can be reviewed annually and any differences in your income would be used to do the annual adjustment (up or down).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by arabian View Post
                      Actually it was the judge that dictated it. Letters projecting income are not commonly used when determining self-employment income. Facts speak for themselves.
                      Yes, it is best to use actual income, and unfair to both parties to guess or predict. Annual adjustments based on actual income are the only fair way to go.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by sam666 View Post
                        The total incomes I mentioned are from line 150 of Notice of Assessments..Is that correct or should it be from line 236 (total net income)?
                        Any comment on this?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I skipped into this thread again and noticed you are in manufacturing - my world. There is a chance tht your main employer has a no second job policy - they make it a condition of employment with the intent that they pay the employees good wages and for many reasons (one being an employee working a second job, perhaps getting too overtired and accident rate rising, they lose a valued emoployee should they have an injury on the second job. Not 100% sure how WCB comes into play as well as the income of both employers will be used to pay WCB benefits). Hope this helps with the rational of not having the overtiime (aside that overtime is not the same as a second job, it is not as emotionally draining either - plus as the employer decisions can be made as to "the pulse of the floor" in that employer will cut back hours when the workers hit that stage of exhausted! I know of this having worked for an employer who, to make contract dates, had to have the plant work 12 hour days 7 days a week (although only 8 on the weekends) and going 6+months....... tough but the money was good.

                          agree with billm - if support is a consideration, the payor needs to work to pay suppoort and as long as the work is reasonable it should be up to the worker. Workers are not robots, money making machines and I would hope that the payor would be allowed the right to balance workload and ability to spend time with children if that be the case..... Going from 100+K to 20K is not right but going from 80K to 70K, or 60K? is not out of line I would think. IMHO

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ddol1 View Post
                            I skipped into this thread again and noticed you are in manufacturing - my world. There is a chance tht your main employer has a no second job policy - they make it a condition of employment with the intent that they pay the employees good wages and for many reasons (one being an employee working a second job, perhaps getting too overtired and accident rate rising, they lose a valued emoployee should they have an injury on the second job. Not 100% sure how WCB comes into play as well as the income of both employers will be used to pay WCB benefits). Hope this helps with the rational of not having the overtiime (aside that overtime is not the same as a second job, it is not as emotionally draining either - plus as the employer decisions can be made as to "the pulse of the floor" in that employer will cut back hours when the workers hit that stage of exhausted! I know of this having worked for an employer who, to make contract dates, had to have the plant work 12 hour days 7 days a week (although only 8 on the weekends) and going 6+months....... tough but the money was good.

                            agree with billm - if support is a consideration, the payor needs to work to pay suppoort and as long as the work is reasonable it should be up to the worker. Workers are not robots, money making machines and I would hope that the payor would be allowed the right to balance workload and ability to spend time with children if that be the case..... Going from 100+K to 20K is not right but going from 80K to 70K, or 60K? is not out of line I would think. IMHO
                            Now that you mentioned (and thanks for reminidng me!!) I cannot work 2nd job even if I want to, because we have a requirement (in the employment contract) to work in different shifts sometimes (to cover someone on vacation, sick, etc). My company runs 24x7 so they can ask us to work in any weird shift to cover someone else.

                            Also, do they look at line 150 or 236 on tax return?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              typical over and over you hear and read it is line 150. But this is for people who have regular income from standard employment. If you have other kinds of income that is not covered under 150 then a more manual approach is used and all sources income can then be declared for support purposes.

                              Comment

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