Advice about parent providing TMI to child

[billiechic]

My daughter and I (almost 6) have a lot of our discussions in the car on the way to/from daycare. In the past month or so she has started to divulge info to me that is not really related to whatever we are talking about. It is always about something that her father has told her.

Every single time she starts out with "mommy, can I tell you something?" And then proceeds to tell me

-daddy told her that one of her relatives (my side) said bad things about daddy on facebook

-mommy called the police on daddy and mommy's boyfriend "got involved"

-daddy said you should pay him for daycare, the judge said so.

this morning she said "i just want to know the truth mom"

Obviously her dad is talking to her a LOT about issues that a child should not be discussing. While all of things have some truth to them, they are his opinion, and he is subjecting her to them. I deliberately did not let my daughter know about the call to the police, our court date last week, and all the issues that are between her dad and I. He has been telling her things about our marriage, and basically relying on her for his emotional support, or worse, deliberately telling her the "bad things" mom does.

This is WRONG! We are on a waiting list for her to get counseling or therapy, but it is going to be 5 months. These are not isolated incidents, and she has been opening up more and more about what her dad tells her. I just dont feel that I can properly respond to her, it will only be reinforcing his behaviour and confuse her more.

We have a mediation date in a few weeks, but I don't want to ruin the chances that we will be able to settle some of this. Does anyone have any suggestions how I can start dealing with this in the meantime? Bringing it up to him will just cause a defense reaction.

[cbarker78]

Oh that really BITES!!!

Do you have anything in writing yet about not talking negatively about the other parent? If so a "gentle and kind" (& carefully worded) email may be in order (?)

In the mean time, lots of hugs and cuddles, and reminders to your dd that you both lover her lots and while mommy and daddy are working this out, she does not have to worry about any of it.... and then distract her with talking about the day she had, or something fun coming up....

My oldest is also 6 (soon to be 7) and they are sponges who pick up on everything!

Best wishes!!

[Tayken]

My daughter and I (almost 6) have a lot of our discussions in the car on the way to/from daycare. In the past month or so she has started to divulge info to me that is not really related to whatever we are talking about. It is always about something that her father has told her.

Now, it is hard to prove these things and if put into an affidavit I can tell you a judge will not be happy. You may be seen as questioning your child. Also, remember at 6 years old a child will tell you things they think you want to hear. How you react to what are saying may be exciting the child and I hate to be the one to say this... Your child may be playing on your emotions. Not to get anything... Just that they are experimenting and learning. No court will accept statements from a 6 year old. The 6 year old mind is not sophisticated enough to communicate some of the things you are describing.

Remember the child may be hearing things that the other parent didn't intend for them to hear. It isn't because they are saying these things but, they may be hearing it after they go to bed and the other parent thinks they are not in earshot.

Every single time she starts out with "mommy, can I tell you something?" And then proceeds to tell me

-daddy told her that one of her relatives (my side) said bad things about daddy on facebook

1. Is it true? Did someone say something negative about the other parent. If it did happen make the person in question take it down and apologize.

2. You should let your daughter know that everything is ok and that she shouldn't worry about it. You can also kindly ask the other parent to be careful what is said. Don't blame the other parent or try to use this as "evidence" to parental alienation. Try to focus on resolving the problem for your daughter and don't come across as instructional in how you state the problem.

-mommy called the police on daddy and mommy's boyfriend "got involved"

Again, is this is true and did your daughter witness the event and the police? Events involving the police can be psychologically scaring for children.

-daddy said you should pay him for daycare, the judge said so.

Again, might be something she overheard or said directly. Either way reassure her that everything with her daycare is ok and ask her if she likes going to the daycare and what she does there. Ask her what her favourite thing to do at daycare is... Who her friends are... What she learned. Don't dive into a cross examination of your daughter ever. Your best to address the statement with reassurance that everything with the daycare is fine.
this morning she said "i just want to know the truth mom"

Obviously her dad is talking to her a LOT about issues that a child should not be discussing. While all of things have some truth to them, they are his opinion, and he is subjecting her to them.

She may be overhearing coversations with others and counsel that the other parent isn't aware she is hearing.

I deliberately did not let my daughter know about the call to the police, our court date last week, and all the issues that are between her dad and I. He has been telling her things about our marriage, and basically relying on her for his emotional support, or worse, deliberately telling her the "bad things" mom does.

Careful with this kind of "belief" of the other parent. Unless you have evidence other than statements made by a 6 year old that you provide through hearsay in court materials... No one may believe you.

You may want to talk to the other parent and just state that your daughter is having some challenges with the separation and should probably talk to a paediatrician or your FP about how to solve the problem for your daughter versus creating more conflict potentially.

I encourage you to be the mature parent and solve the problem for your daughter.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[billiechic]

regardless of how "gently" I remind him, he is only going to get angry and retaliate. This has happened before and I can't figure out how to get through to him. I think my daughter has probably even told him herself that she doesn't want to hear it. I know she tells me when I say something mean about anyone (like a bad driver-lol)

I know over time if he continues this he will push her away from him, and the fact that she is telling me likely means she is questioning how much of it is true. But I don't want her to have to deal with this.

Any advice would REALLY be appreciated.

[billiechic]

Thank you Tayken.

I assure you that I am not trying to question her, that she is actually bringing these things up. The talk this morning was triggered by me telling her daycamp includes swimming. She then told me about daddy saying I called the police at her swimming lesson. (the police came during the swimming lesson, and until this morning I though she knew nothing about it. I made sure she did not see the police, and I know she did not overhear ANYTHING from myself or my boyfriend.)

And I am not wanting to use this in court. I just want it to stop.
We are waiting for an appointment with both a pediatrician, and a pychiatrist. I think your suggestion of calling my EAP is great...I will do that tonight!

As for taking it to court, I called CAS last time my child reported to me that dad was hitting her in the face. I do beleive my daughter, but I've learned that NOBODY in the legal process will believe me, and that if she changes her story, it doesn't matter. Our family doctor is the only professional who is willing to look into it, and so I am following his suggestions for therapy. He is the only one willing to put his neck out to make sure my kid is not being hit, or being "emotionally leaned on" by her father. The rest are too busy keeping their noses clean to actually DO THEIR JOBS and investigate.

[cbarker78]

Tayken - I disagree..... *some* 6 year olds are more than capable of telling the truth and not making things up like this.... even by your own comment "The 6 year old mind is not sophisticated enough to communicate some of the things you are describing." would make sense that they are repeating what they hear and not making it up.... ((gawd knows they love to parrot things))

I agree that these things have to be treated very gently.... as the parent hearing it, your first natural reaction may be shock/anger, but we can't show these..... I equate this to when my daughter swore for the first time. You don't want to give them a big reaction because they will then continue to use it to get that reaction. Rather I asked her where she had heard it, and how it had been used. That opened up a conversation about how older kids or adults may use different words than younger kids ((specifically not "little kids"))... and we spoke about how it's not nice hearing these things, so if we don't want someone saying it to us then we shouldn't say it to someone else.... and so on. The point is that it was an opening to have a discussion - not interrogation, not a lecture - to create a learning opportunity....

In this case, counselling to help her daughter deal with it really sounds like the best option. If ex won't take any sort of responsibility then there really is little she can do. The nice part at that age though is that distraction still works beautifully!!

I feel very strongly that it is really important to listen to our children, try to understand them, let them know that we trust what they say - no matter the age..... I remember from my own experience over-hearing once too often "oh she's just a kid, she doesn't know what she's talking about..." and it stung so much that I just stopped seeking help, and stopped talking to certain family. What they didn't realize was how deeply I was hurting because they wouldn't take me seriously...... While we don't need to speak to them, or treat them like adults, just validating their comments, feelings, and emotions is a very strong way to build trust!!

[billiechic]

While we don't need to speak to them, or treat them like adults, just validating their comments, feelings, and emotions is a very strong way to build trust!!

Yes, this is exactly what I want to do. She has feelings, and needs to talk about them with someone. But she is betraying her father (or feels she is) to talk to me.

My daughter is not quite 6, but she is a smart cookie, very observant and is quiteable to figure things out on her own. I'm not surprised that she is asking for "the truth", given that she has decided she wants to be an inventor when she grows up!

[Tayken]

regardless of how "gently" I remind him, he is only going to get angry and retaliate. This has happened before and I can't figure out how to get through to him. I think my daughter has probably even told him herself that she doesn't want to hear it. I know she tells me when I say something mean about anyone (like a bad driver-lol)

You can be gentle and firm on your position at the same time. It takes a lot of effort to write these kinds of communications. Just make sure you communicate what needs to be said. If he disregards it and/or responds negatively it further demonstrates you are in fact the mature parent. It sucks but, your daughter will really appreaciate you for doing it in the long run.

You can't "save" the other parent from themselves but, you can make an effort to make sure your daughter isn't being exposed to things she shouldn't be.

Yes, it is hard to do. Yes, it sucks.

I know over time if he continues this he will push her away from him, and the fact that she is telling me likely means she is questioning how much of it is true. But I don't want her to have to deal with this.

Well, this could form part of your concern... Your concern for his relationship with your daughter. You seem to demonstrate some concern for the impact it will have on him and your daughter... Both parents are important in your child's life. Your child needs you both.

Child forward thinking... It really sucks to have to deal with a high conflict parent but, some times... You have to.

Any advice would REALLY be appreciated.

BIFF / E.A.R. it... (Search BIFF and E.A.R. on Google.) They are great communications strategies for dealing with highly conflicted people.

You are faced with a very difficult challenge.

[Tayken]

Tayken - I disagree..... *some* 6 year olds are more than capable of telling the truth and not making things up like this.... even by your own comment "The 6 year old mind is not sophisticated enough to communicate some of the things you are describing." would make sense that they are repeating what they hear and not making it up.... ((gawd knows they love to parrot things))

I can only offer the advice seen in continuing records and from custody and access evaluators about statements from a 6 year old at the time of separation. Remember they may be saying things with a hope that their parents get back together. Also, parents want to hear what they want... A third party clinician would have to be involved to understand "the voice of the child" in these matters. (Google "Voice of the Child".)

I am not saying "don't listen to the child" but... Listen with the child's ears and not your adult ears. Also, have someone else listen to the child who is not emotionally involved in the matter listen and provide their feedback.

Furthermore there are all sorts of childhood psychological factors that impact children in these situation. A careful analysis from a clinician with the child and a view to resolving the problems is key.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[Tayken]

Thank you Tayken.

I assure you that I am not trying to question her, that she is actually bringing these things up.

Not projecting blame... Just providing you how the evidence may be responded to if put into an affidavit that is all.

The talk this morning was triggered by me telling her daycamp includes swimming. She then told me about daddy saying I called the police at her swimming lesson. (the police came during the swimming lesson, and until this morning I though she knew nothing about it. I made sure she did not see the police, and I know she did not overhear ANYTHING from myself or my boyfriend.)

Unfortunate for the child to know this. Hopefully the involvement of the police was necessary. Were charges laid?

And I am not wanting to use this in court. I just want it to stop. We are waiting for an appointment with both a pediatrician, and a pychiatrist. I think your suggestion of calling my EAP is great...I will do that tonight!

It wasn't me who recommended the EAP but, that is an excellent recommendation (whoever made it!) and I often forget to mention many employers have EAP services that can be used!

As for taking it to court, I called CAS last time my child reported to me that dad was hitting her in the face. I do beleive my daughter, but I've learned that NOBODY in the legal process will believe me, and that if she changes her story, it doesn't matter.

CAS really deals with very extreme cases of maltreatment and neglect and abuse. They are not able to help (possibly due to case load?) with a lot of issues.

Our family doctor is the only professional who is willing to look into it, and so I am following his suggestions for therapy. He is the only one willing to put his neck out to make sure my kid is not being hit, or being "emotionally leaned on" by her father. The rest are too busy keeping their noses clean to actually DO THEIR JOBS and investigate.

You have identified a very big problem. The disconnect between the health care system and family law. There needs to be better integration and clinical investigations with a view to help the entire family... Moms, dads and children. Families are important and we should invest in them and insure they are healthy and happy.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[billiechic]

Unfortunate for the child to know this. Hopefully the involvement of the police was necessary. Were charges laid?

It is, isn't it, hence my attempt to keep it from her.

No, and that was not the intention. The father was attending her extra curriculars on my court-ordered time, after many requests that he not attend. I know that sounds unfair, but he was sending me malicious text messages throughout her sessions, harassing me for hours afterward about "his parental rights" and how awful a parent I was.

I had originally invited him to attend parent's night, and he insisted on attending every night (all of which were on my nights). I only asked him to let me know if he wanted to attend before he came. Instead he forced himself into the situation, playing on my fear of him (it had been an abusive marriage). I told him several times that if he attended that night I would be calling the police to escort him out. He thought I was bluffing, and when my boyfriend tried to tell him I WAS calling, my ex tried to create a scene by screaming accusations (in a recreation centre).

The police recommended he obtain my written permission (via text) before he attended any more of her events on my nights. He showed up the next week, and every week following that.

I did not want him arrested or charged. I just wanted him to respect that it was my time with her and not attend. So I wanted them to keep the peace. Since I don't have a police enforcement order (or anything of the like preventing him from attending) they could only recommend he leave. It's not like he hadn't seen our daughter for a while, he has 50/50!!

[tugofwar]

Have her watch or read to her the book, Bambi, thumber says a great thing "if you aint got nothing nice to say, dont say anything at all" So if dad is saying hurtful words about mommy have her recite that to him. lol
Children dont just make stuff up, especially being so specific to what did happen. Billiechic's ex has some major issues and is still not letting her go on with her life... and using the child to get to her is morally wrong.

[wretchedotis]

regardless of how "gently" I remind him, he is only going to get angry and retaliate. This has happened before and I can't figure out how to get through to him. I think my daughter has probably even told him herself that she doesn't want to hear it. I know she tells me when I say something mean about anyone (like a bad driver-lol)

I know over time if he continues this he will push her away from him, and the fact that she is telling me likely means she is questioning how much of it is true. But I don't want her to have to deal with this.

Any advice would REALLY be appreciated.

There is really no answer except trying to solve the probpem at the source. A very difficult proposition.

It is, isn't it, hence my attempt to keep it from her.

No, and that was not the intention. The father was attending her extra curriculars on my court-ordered time, after many requests that he not attend. I know that sounds unfair, but he was sending me malicious text messages throughout her sessions, harassing me for hours afterward about "his parental rights" and how awful a parent I was.

I had originally invited him to attend parent's night, and he insisted on attending every night (all of which were on my nights). I only asked him to let me know if he wanted to attend before he came. Instead he forced himself into the situation, playing on my fear of him (it had been an abusive marriage). I told him several times that if he attended that night I would be calling the police to escort him out. He thought I was bluffing, and when my boyfriend tried to tell him I WAS calling, my ex tried to create a scene by screaming accusations (in a recreation centre).

The police recommended he obtain my written permission (via text) before he attended any more of her events on my nights. He showed up the next week, and every week following that.

I did not want him arrested or charged. I just wanted him to respect that it was my time with her and not attend. So I wanted them to keep the peace. Since I don't have a police enforcement order (or anything of the like preventing him from attending) they could only recommend he leave. It's not like he hadn't seen our daughter for a while, he has 50/50!!

That does sound horrible - from both sides. I personally hate the `ìt`s my time`concept I so often hear spouted. Of course, he`s acting like an ass and making it so that it`s not an easy thing for you to be ok with either. There is no winner there.

I don`t know you from squat, or your ex.

But to me that these things are happening says that you are both egging each other on in some way. I know I do it from time to time myself. Its hard not to stick it the ex once and awhile when the opportunity presents itself. The whole process of court and fighting for custodyéacees has predispositioned me to dislike her. Intensely.

What I do when my son says things like this to me is simply say...

Thats an adult topic that Mom should not be talking to you about. All you need to know is that both Mom and Dad love you very much. Do not worry yourself about things like that you may hear either me or Mommy say, and of course feel free to ask me about anything you ever have questions about.

Really - there is no other solution that I can see.

Hopefully that little speach eases the kids anxiety, encourage him not to listen, and letès him know he can always come to me if he has questions.

My boy is six - and I believe that he finds that answer acceptable, and trusts in the truth of it - even if he totally doesnèt understand the whole of it.

[billiechic]

Thanks Wretched.
Yes, it does appear that we are both being petty about time, and I am painfully aware that is how it will be percieved from the outside.

But when he began insisting he had parental rights over and above mine, and actually stated that how I felt meant absolutely nothing (when I referred to feeling intimidated and scared) he crossed a line

In a case where there has been abuse and control, allowing the controlling parent to be present during the other parent's time is another way to continue that feeling of control. In the past we have both attended several of our daughter's events at the same time, and are able to get along, or genuinely be decent. But all of those events occurred at her school or daycare, where her teachers etc were present, and he was on his best behaviour.

There is a reason why many abused parents get full custody. While you can chalk a LOT of it up to charges, and "best interests of the children", or gender, the court also sees that the abusive parent (often also controlling) will NOT promote the relationship with the other parent, and often tries to control it, or even sabotage it.

My ex was not coming to her lessons, driving over an hour each way, just to see his kid swim for 25 minutes. He was coming to show me that I was powerless to stop him from coming, and he outright told me so. I mean come on, he drops her off to school on the same morning of all her lessons! He sees her 50% of the time! This is clearly not a case where time is being fought over, because that was already agreed to in final orders (consentual I might add) and I have never said I wanted it changed.

It is clearly a case of him not accepting that her time with me is not HIS time! He cannot accept that he has no say in how we spend it, and that he can only attend if I allow him to. He is fighting against losing control, not to see his daughter, who he has EQUAL time with.

[billiechic]

I question whether the gender bias factors in here, in a reverse sense. Am I being seen as "stopping him from being involved" because so many custodial mothers have done that before?

Am I being unfairly judged because I dont want him there on my nights?

I could see this being an issue if there was not 50/50 custody, but he has an equal opportunity to enrol her in lessons and attend them.

What I do think is that there is an expectation that parents be able to "put away" their feelings in order to do what's best for their children. That is mighty difficult for a victim of DV to do, but I believe I have managed it quite well, having heard it from several lawyers and Duty Counsel that it is rare for a child to be 50/50 with that family history, and virtually unheard of that the victim supports it.

But just because one is able to ignore their triggers the majority of the time and "suck it up" does not mean that the abuser should be allowed to throw it in their face, and rub salt in it by disrespecting their wishes and doing things to deliberately antagonize them. How much of his self -righteousness to I have to put up with before it is recognized that it IS in the child's best interests for there to be a separation between Moms time and dads time???