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  • Motion to Vary re: S.7 expenses etc

    I wanted to know if anyone in this forum has ever sought a Motion to Vary for S.7 expenses and for implementation of a Life Insurance Policy to be taken out by EX to secure/satisfy the CS/SS payments for which I am the recipient.

    These are 2 things I wanted included in the Final Order but got overlooked. The order was very sloppy, done at the last minute by the Courts after more than 5 months of sitting on it. It was provincial court, a 2day trial, had nothing to do w/custody or property or equalization.

    I've also learned that the Court has (still) not sent the order into FRO (5 months after the fact) so I sent it in myself (my 'copy' of it, along w/the registration forms for FRO). It's absolutely outrageous to me, that the Courts have not registered the order. Fro told me to call the court. The court told me to call my lawyer.

    Supposedly I can file a motion to vary. What exactly are the steps involved? I'm assuming there's a magic Form to complete? I plan to do this without a lawyer if at all possible. Any advice/thoughts? Thank-you.

  • #2
    Hi:

    At the time of the final settlement, my lawyer told me that sec. 7 exp will vary itself (without change of motion)on the based on each party income. When I asked FRO, they told me they can only force what court order says.

    In the past when I asked my ex to pay sec 7 exp.( he keeps saying he will pay his share according to guide line, not on the based on order). Now I am asking him for current income disclosure and no response. However, if both of you can agree on variation, it can be done with out motion. It appears it may not be possible. FRO will only implement what is in the final order.

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    • #3
      Thx singlemom. Ex and I don't "agree" on anything. We don't even talk. If I proceed w/this, it will be through the Courts and I imagine (initially) as a 'surprise' for him. I did broach the insurance topic w/him once, and he was semi-reasonable (that day) w/his response. However, he was being untruthful as usual, and has not looked into (to my knowledge) or followed up, in any way.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by hadenough View Post
        Thx singlemom. Ex and I don't "agree" on anything. We don't even talk. If I proceed w/this, it will be through the Courts and I imagine (initially) as a 'surprise' for him. I did broach the insurance topic w/him once, and he was semi-reasonable (that day) w/his response. However, he was being untruthful as usual, and has not looked into (to my knowledge) or followed up, in any way.
        I wouldn't recommend going on motion for something so trivial. Unless the other parent has a LTD and is about to die... It is not worth going to court over.

        Good Luck!
        Tayken

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        • #5
          As much as I have always respected Tayken's opinion so far, on this point, I must disagree. Life insurance is MAJOR to cover all future payments.

          Hadenough, worst case is you subscribe the insurance for your ex. He may have to have a medical, but given the choice between you paying the monthly fees and being taken to court, he may choose wisely...

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          • #6
            Thx for replies. Torontonian, I suppose that's a possiblity. He's just such a total ass.. But definitely an option I should at least attempt.

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            • #7
              Do you have life insurance? If something were to happen to you I would assume that he would get custody of the kids and would then require assistance financially.

              If shows good faith. You do what you expect him to do.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by torontonian View Post
                As much as I have always respected Tayken's opinion so far, on this point, I must disagree. Life insurance is MAJOR to cover all future payments.

                Hadenough, worst case is you subscribe the insurance for your ex. He may have to have a medical, but given the choice between you paying the monthly fees and being taken to court, he may choose wisely...
                1. Child support is to support children. Not the other parent. BOTH parents have a responsibility to support their children. Even when it is an EOW SC situation.

                2. Planning for the death of the other parent is morbid and the courts generally see it this way.

                3. The general order for a life insurance policy is about 100,000 per the Rules. This would be a term life policy. Generally speaking, the cost of this kind of policy is peanuts. To go to court on a monthly expense that is less than 50$ doesn't make either party look good to a judge.

                4. Life Insurance is based on your income and the loss of your income. It always puzzles me to see families in court litigating Life Insurance on total combined incomes that would not even get them approved or close to a policy that would ever cover the chidlren's needs over a life time.

                5. Life Insurance is just something most people who want to continue the fight to fight about. Hence the recommendation.

                6. You are better off investing in your career, improving your income and moving on with your life than litigating a 100,000 life insurance policy.

                The cost to litigate a the matter isn't worth the emotional stress that both parents will go through. The actual $ to litigate the matter just adds to it.

                The last thing families need is the stress of a court motion or conference on something like this.

                Plus, planning for the death of the other parent is a bit morbid and judges I observe tend to point this out.

                Good Luck!
                Tayken

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by hadenough View Post
                  Thx for replies. Torontonian, I suppose that's a possiblity. He's just such a total ass.. But definitely an option I should at least attempt.
                  One thing you have to be careful with "total asses" is that they love conflict. By going to court you don't know what "stuff" the other parent is going to bring forward. You may apply for this minor issue but, find yourself with 300 pages of affidavit material that you have to respond to. This is a classic behaviour pattern of a high-conflict person in legal proceedings.

                  You may want to count your cards at this time with everything else you have. Don't get entrapped in the high-conflict behaviour patterns of the other parent. If they are as you describe they could be louring you into being the applicant so they can "shotgun" (throw a pile of "stuff" at you all at once) in response.

                  When dealing with a high-conflict individual as you have described you need to choose your battles. You never know what they are going to throw back at you. Don't give them the opportunity I say.

                  Good Luck!
                  Tayken

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Coop View Post
                    Do you have life insurance? If something were to happen to you I would assume that he would get custody of the kids and would then require assistance financially.

                    If shows good faith. You do what you expect him to do.
                    "What is good for the goose is good for the gander."
                    "You can't suck and blow at the same time."

                    Coop makes a very good point. After the death of either parent, barring a serious issue with the remaining parent, custody will transfer to the surviving parent. In the situation you are describing BOTH parents should have life insurance.

                    Good Luck!
                    Tayken

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                    • #11
                      Tayken - You are a dedicated helper, really thank you for all your posts. But you may not be my age, getting close to retirement, where "death" is not a morbid idea but a fact of life. Life insurance is to insure my spousal support (as well as CS/S7 for the last dependent kid), since I don't have a sufficient pension, having sacrificed for the family. For me, it's my retirement. Does that put it in a better perspective? Cheers.

                      Added: and it's not $100,000 but waaaay more in our case, so not peanuts...
                      And adding again: the monthly payment is not $50 either...
                      Last edited by torontonian; 02-15-2012, 10:06 AM.

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                      • #12
                        I agree that both parents should have life insurance. Tayken: this particular "total ass" has nothing he can throw at me. He lied in court during trial, got caught in all of them - he now owes my lawyer just under 20g, and until that's paid he's basically got NO position to bring any matter before the Courts. In fact, once the time allotted to pay said costs expires, he will be in contempt of court.

                        That said, as pointless as it may be - I am attempting one more time to see if he will agree to the life insurance idea. He's already in breach of the court ordered CS/SS amount - shortpays every month - Fro has not yet processed my registration materials. I simply want the security of a policy in the event that something were to happen to him. It is in fact very common to have these stipulations in a final order and there's nothing morbid about it.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by torontonian View Post
                          Tayken - You are a dedicated helper, really thank you for all your posts. But you may not be my age, getting close to retirement, where "death" is not a morbid idea but a fact of life. Life insurance is to insure my spousal support (as well as CS/S7 for the last dependent kid), since I don't have a sufficient pension, having sacrificed for the family. For me, it's my retirement. Does that put it in a better perspective? Cheers.

                          Added: and it's not $100,000 but waaaay more in our case, so not peanuts...
                          And adding again: the monthly payment is not $50 either...
                          Bill 133 and acting on a pension split should be in your focus if you are worried about not having a sufficient pension. You have equal opportunity to die early as the other party in the litigation. There is no guarentee you will out live the other person.

                          Furthermore, depending on how much SS you are getting the judge may not force the other parent (considering age) to enter into a 1,200 a month policy if one doesn't already exist. Health + age = the term amount.

                          I hope you have equalized the pension. If you have, then you should have security. Or is the other party in the litigation going to be working past retirement to support the spousal support payments?

                          Good Luck!
                          Tayken

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by hadenough View Post
                            I agree that both parents should have life insurance. Tayken: this particular "total ass" has nothing he can throw at me. He lied in court during trial, got caught in all of them - he now owes my lawyer just under 20g, and until that's paid he's basically got NO position to bring any matter before the Courts. In fact, once the time allotted to pay said costs expires, he will be in contempt of court.
                            He is probably biding his time to file bankruptcy. That is the next "ass" thing you can expect. Furthermore, not paying money is not contempt and you can't bring a contempt motion. Your lawyer can try and sue him for the money but, that is often like beating a dead horse with a stick.

                            Originally posted by hadenough View Post
                            I simply want the security of a policy in the event that something were to happen to him. It is in fact very common to have these stipulations in a final order and there's nothing morbid about it.
                            Marriage is not about financial security in my opinion. It is about two people sharing their lives and not in the profit of their death. Not saying you are but... That is how it can be seen if you aggressively litigate the matter.

                            Good Luck!
                            Tayken

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                            • #15
                              Life Insurance Case Law (Ontario - Divorce)

                              The defining case law for Life Insurance which is sighted in the vast majority of cases is Laczko v. Laczko, 1999 CanLII 14998 (ON SC):

                              CanLII - 1999 CanLII 14998 (ON SC)

                              It is important to note the last paragraph of the order:

                              15. In the absence of any actuarial evidence as to the appropriate coverage amount under such policy I am of the view that the amount of $125,000.00 would be a reasonable coverage for the subject policy. The coverage amount can be reduced on the fifth anniversary date, to $100,000.00 and on the tenth anniversary date, to $50,000.00.

                              You will note that the coverage starts at 125,000, changes on the fifth anniversary date to 100,000 and on the tenth anniversary date to $50,000... This is a key point.

                              Even if you do get an order for Life Insurance it won't cover you forever. Ten years is the max and often it is linked to the last child completing secondary education and ends then.

                              Good Luck!
                              Tayken

                              Comment

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