Deciding decision making

[Kkc]

I’m still waiting from October on a short motion for my results

The judge who used to be a family lawyer said…isn’t this a pretty routine thing?
And her lawyer said in 40 years I never asked for this?
Judge just smiled…

In my case I discovered two hidden bank accounts that she did not disclose…so all those will be ordered


Now in terms of the topic post with decision making

The ex without even talking to me went and picked a new dentist without even talking to me...while a dentist is one thing…it’s the behaviour behind it that will harm her case

[SmallTalker]

#1. I did
#2. Case judge completely ignored it as if it wasn’t requested

Friend in same court (different judge) made a motion. Judge ordered ex to sign a consent to search in 5 major banks. No costs awarded.

If you know how to ensure judge follows the law, I am all hears

[StillPaying]

1. Ask for it.
2. Get conference judge to order it.
3. Motion for consequences (fees, expenses, costs, imputation, assign value for assets/debt, strike pleadings, etc)

You won't get away with ignoring orders, especially financial disclosure.

[SmallTalker]

Your comments imply you are assuming how financial disclosure works. 5 banks?! A bank won't even give you your spouse's details on a joint account. We're forced to get a full account report and a history of our card, in order to show the facts. Post separation, each individual has sole access to their statements which is the only way to prove their income, debt, lifestyle...

If you refuse to disclose ordered financials, do you really think a judge would make that your ex's problem?

I am not disagreeing with you that this is how it should work, but at the same moment it often doesn’t happen, even after serving form 20, and while judge may and should enforce it, they often don’t. I am here to learn so if you know how to make it happen, I’ll appreciate your input.

[StillPaying]

Your comments imply you are assuming how financial disclosure works. 5 banks?! A bank won't even give you your spouse's details on a joint account. We're forced to get a full account report and a history of our card, in order to show the facts. Post separation, each individual has sole access to their statements which is the only way to prove their income, debt, lifestyle...

If you refuse to disclose ordered financials, do you really think a judge would make that your ex's problem?

[SmallTalker]

You don't locate bank account statements, you request them from ex and track every dollar coming and going. It's on ex to provide, not you to hunt down.

Unless of course your ex doesn’t provide it, or what worse provides it partially. There are way too many examples in life, on canlii and even here that one side hides financial disclosure. By the rules yes, if ex didn’t provide disclosure the judge will order it, in some cases even with costs, but if you deal with unreasonable ex, it could easily become your issue.

[StillPaying]

wthwt

You don't locate bank account statements, you request them from ex and track every dollar coming and going. It's on ex to provide, not you to hunt down.

[SmallTalker]

Not disagree that people lying on credit app, but proving it still useful. Imagine:
[you]- your honour, my ex is making 200k, but I can’t locate bank accounts
[ex]- I am not making 200k, I only make 30k a year, here is my NOA
[you] - your honour, but my ex got a million dollar mortgage and shown on application employment income of 200k
[ex] - oh, that one. No, you see your honour, I lied to the bank about my income so to secure mortgage, but in fact I am only earning 30k. I did lie to bank, but I don’t lie to my ex about finances.

If you can suggest other ways tracking funds, I’ll be happy to learn.

[StillPaying]

Credit applications are just the low hanging fruit where people disclose their incomes or may lie about it. If you're dealing with exempt incomes, they're useless- same for obvious incomes.

Bank accounts are whats required. Being able to see all income come in (work, child/gov benefits, etc) and all debts, expenses, loans, bills going out. Following the money, based on what's known and from their financial statement.

[Kkc]

I should clarify

I actually found hidden bank accounts not disclosed.
Basically I traced one check..and the other she sent to me accidentally when she thought she was disclosing her rrsp

We called it out and even in middle of court her lawyer didn’t even acknowledge this existence. Like make up a story..ie she forgot…here’s the account statement on date of separation to minimize this discovery..but to pretend it’s not there??

The way she likely did it was being labelled as an independent contractor at her parents business and that way it will not generate a t4

Even for me, ohip doesn’t give me a t4 it’s the honour system, but foolish to lie because ohip payments are very easy to track

Can you dm me some of those ways to cheat, it will be things to keep in mind when my forensic accountant family member goes through them.

Also…people lie on credit applications so I agree these are valuable but not when dealing with a compulsive liar

[SmallTalker]

How did she increase your fees via law society? If she complained about your lawyer, I doubt he should’ve charge you for answering law society claim, but I learn every day.

Making an offer with closed cards very hard, but chances all you will get from court is an order allowing you make an account search in 5 major banks. She will sign the consent to search, but it will be done by lawyer. Then banks aren’t particularly happy giving away clients info, so chances it will result in few letters between your lawyer and them, until they’ll tell you they never had this client, and in the end you’ll have huge legal bill with zero outcome.

If she is to hide money; I could think of good dozen of ways doing it - won’t specify here just not to give the idea to future readers, but if she isn’t afraid to lie and not on T4, it is easily achievable.

Lawyers often use other tactic - they request credit applications, rental etc., as this is where people specify income more honestly.

[Kkc]

Thank you for the reply

We had to bring a motion as she had hidden bank accounts

The strategy you describe by her is a possibility but she has had a judge deem her behaviour unreasonable.

That same judge handling the disclosure will now say she is bad faith negotiating as she ignored the request for 3 months, then said she would cooperate when I threatened court, then she reneged, then I told her I was signing a motion, then it was she will cooperate and mediate, but when it came time to sign mediation agreement she refused.

Her lawyer also exposes himself for needlessly driving up my costs via law society…he’s done far worse

Here is where I am at, I’d love to make her an offer. She said she wants me to pay her cra debt because she didn’t file taxes for 3 years. I asked her to file them and what her debt is..then it’s an excuse for not filing taxes

She has had 500k go through her hands in the last 4 years and she owes me around 300k. So if she is literally broke vs having saved a lot will alter what reasonable would be.

I do not think anyone would be comfortable making an offer with absolutely no information

[SmallTalker]

i am trying to avoid a trial and trying to settle

she does not and her lawyer is doing every stall delay tactic

Some lawyers like that - there is obvious conflict of interest and bad lawyer would delay because moment you both settle, the lawyer’s paycheque ends.

I can’t figure out how to handle it. Probably best strategy is making sure her strategy costs you less than it costs her. Having a good lawyer that plays by rules could be a disadvantage to you, despite all recommendations find a good lawyer.
Say for instance you request disclosure. She ignores it. You send a follow up, she ignores it. You do another follow up - she sends you a disclosure, but not what you requested. You write letter again. She ignores. Etc. etc.
At the end, you wasted 5 hours on disclosure, she only spent 1-2 hour via her lawyer, sending some useless replies. And while it may seem she hides something, often lawyers do it only to keep the bill.
Bringing a motion, getting court order etc. would often cost you even more, and at the end she will produce document revealing she wasn’t hiding anything - but their strategy was to make a big deal of something not worth hiding to increase your legal bills for nothing.

[Kkc]

i am trying to avoid a trial and trying to settle

she does not and her lawyer is doing every stall delay tactic
ie: our city has a custom of no settlement conference before questioning takes place, but I do not want to question him at this time unless mediation fails..but fails to state why she will not sign up for mediation

I think there is something juicy hiding that she won't disclose
it also serves her interest to drag this out. it reminds me of when workers do not want to go back to work as they are on WSIB or S/A benefits

[undersc0re]

Trial seems like a drastic step for that, might need to go that route asap if nothing else is working for you, unless lawyers are involved it should be financially painless, might have to put together some pretty involved paper work and serve it.