arguing for sole custody

[FB_]

Why don't you provide an offer to settle that states joint custody but if a decision can't be made you have final say. I personally don't like these agreements but if the other parent only wants the Joint title so they don't look like a deadbeat they may accept the offer and in the end it pretty much gives you sole anyway.

[engineer]

Tayken,

I have 1000's of pieces of data by accident, not design. It is just what the data recovery systems spat out, and had I even imagined I would get this volume, I would have fine-tuned the filters. I was tripping over stuff long after I stopped looking. I don't want to use all of it - that is way too costly and I expect it would annoy the court more than anything else. It would annoy me.

I was only asking what sorts of things would be best re: custody, so I could pick out the top two or three pieces. I don't think this was such an unreasonable question to post. I didn't go into every detail of my situation or even the most important ones because that was not what the question was about.

I have seen both sides of these custody debates in action - the sole custodian that messes with an ex that genuinely wants to be part of the child's life and the non-custodial joint parent that isn't involved but likes to call the shots. I'm afraid I am with Arabian on this - these situations seem to boil down to money in the end, at least when one parent is using their part of the custody agreement as a prise to either get more or pay less.

But in my situation, I don't see custody as a big issue going forward - sole would be easier for me and the kids but joint isn't impossible. My ex always liked to stir things up through inaction, but the trigger for this was usually something completely unrelated. I learned to choose my timing when his input was necessary. Now that I think about it, he could very easily be asking for joint hoping I will focus on custody and not the financials.

Bottom line - unless my ex is an unmitigated disaster of a human being - there is no evidence I can produce that would yield sole custody. This forum has been very instructive for me - I can see the potential for an expensive and emotional debate that I won't win.

[MS Mom]

My GF has been awarded sole custody of her kids, and she still has to get travel consents from her ex. In fact she did that this week since her kids will be going with their grandfather on a trip down south. Luckily he has been reasonable on this.

That's what must be in her agreement, it won't be in my next one. Nor will the clause that prevents me from moving outside of the city. Pretty moot point now since he moved out of the country, but I wouldn't put it past him to attempt contempt motions if I did move now.

In a previous motion I asked for sole custody and my lawyer suggested I give that pursuit up as the ex has the financial backing of his parents for his lawyer, I was on my own. She said I couldn't afford the sole custody fight. So, I gave it up. Turns out I couldn't afford to not give it up either.

Joint custody has tied my hands much more than people expected it to, which is why I've brought another motion.

My situation isn't an easy one and I caution the statement that in the end, joint custody and sole custody aren't really that different, because they are. I can't even put my child in counseling until she's 12 without his consent.

[Tayken]

Wow. You have formed an opinion quickly, and in the complete absence of data. As an engineer, I generally refrain from this kind of thing.

As an engineer one would expect you to provide the data so assumptions are not made. I am relying upon a large knowledge base FYI (also known as an expert system) that analyzes patterns of speech (tone) against this forum's past contributors. I score my response based on the expert system's scoring.

I am not actually looking for an opinion on my case.

Then why are you here?

I have not presented my case here and have no plan to do so.

But, you have presented what you believe are "facts" to your case. This is what I responded to and applied basic "relevance" rules to them. You took offense to this.

I have a lawyer for this.

Then please rely upon your lawyer. Not sure why you would post to this forum if you have a lawyer already and are not looking for any opinions and are not going to share your information so people can make informed recommendations.

I interviewed a few and retained one in September, 2012. Primary parent is his term. All the lawyers I spoke with felt that joint custody was a no-go, based on the ex's frequent travels.

One thing to note... You are a high income earner and lawyers will tell you many things to make more from your emotional state.

I didn't ask, this was volunteered. His infrequent communications with the kids does not help his case.

It isn't a one-two punch of evidence though. He may counter claim that the communications are thwarted by your controlling behaviours. Be very prepared for mud to fly.

I am aware that custody speaks to decision making. I don't think that my ex gets it, but he has his own lawyer. I expect that they can both figure out what "are there any other individuals over the age of 18 living in your place of residence?" means.

And if they don't bother sharing the information a court isn't going to automatically throw you "sole custody" because they didn't disclose the information. If the people are not a danger to the children then the disclosure is irrelevant.

We have offered to settle for the table amount, based on line 150 of his return. He has not complied. We have sent a demand letter. He has not complied.

Again, he isn't compelled to "comply" with your requests. Do you understand this? He runs the risk of having costs ordered against him but, he only needs to follow what a court orders... Not what you "feel" he should be doing.

Just because I have not referenced specific data/evidence, it does not mean that I have none.

I don't disagree with this statement. But, you need to understand the rules regarding evidence. I encourage you to study the concepts behind how civil court proceedings are executed. Decisions are made on the "balance of probabilities".

Again, I am not presenting my case here.

But, you indeed have. You have presented a theory to your case, why you feel you should have sole custody etc... That the father is not engaged with the children, etc...

I'm not sure what I find more offensive - that you would presume that have formed a theory without data or that I lack the technical wherewithal to obtain it.

I don't know you. So for you to take any offense means to me that I have struck a nerve and there is some honesty to my response and you are now having to reflect on your current emotional state.

What I find "offensive" is you come to a public message forum not seeking advice, feedback and don't need any help... Either you are here to seek information or you are just here to rant about how awful of a parent and how the other parent cheated on you...

I'm an engineer, after all. I mine and analyse data for a living, and I am very thorough.

Good for you. Then you will understand how I am developing an expert system that can actively compare your posting to previous content, cross reference it against a tone meter and score your messages.

You will also understand when I tell you that this expert system has a data store of over 2.3 terrabytes of information folded in from over 1,200 sources driving the decision logic.

I have literally thousands of individual documents that relate to where he was when, who he was with, and how much he spent.

And, you think that in a family court a justice is going to allow you to enter 1000s of documents into the trial record? You need to understand the concept of relevance. Having data doesn't produce results. Honestly, you can collect all the "evidence" you want but, most of it is irrelevant.

I have never seen a family law file with 1000s of documents in the record... I have seen one that weighs over 20kg when printed and it still doesn't have 1000s of documents.

Don't dwell on evidence... It has to be cogent and relevant to matter. Most lawyers struggle with relevance let alone a litigant.

It is amazing what you can find with a relatively small amount of effort. I have a dozen bits of information from the two weeks I brought the kids to visit him alone.

This sounds obsessive to me. The bits of information are probably irrelevant.

I started looking for data after I went through the accounts, after I learned about the loan he had from his employer, and after he paid his foreign taxes out of our joint account.

All prior to the seperation so you won't see any of it back. Your lawyer should have explained this to you. Also, the lawyer should have explained that you should close all joint accounts as of yesterday.

The money was loaned by his employer to pay foreign taxes - he would give them the tax refund that sprung from the foreign tax credit - I was unaware of this loan.

BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT A PARTY TO THE LOAN AND NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR IT. NOR WILL YOU EVER BE. Stop obsessing over financials that are not yours or jointly held. That loan is between the two parties and is IRRELEVANT to your matter. It is not a joint debt.

He spent it instead. He then used joint credit to pay the taxes in the months before we separated, when I was unaware of the impending split.

Again, before the Date of Separation. Not much you can do about it. Unless it is over 150,000 I don't recommend wasting your time to recover it. Penny wise... Pound foolish.

When he received his tax refunds months later - after the split - he gave them to his employer to repay his loan to them. That means we paid his foreign taxes. He turned a personal debt to a joint one when I was unaware of the loan in the first place. That makes his use of company funds overseas, on purposes unintended, very relevant, and it makes his extra-relationship affair relevant.

No it does not. You clearly need a better lawyer.

And yes, she is a spa worker. No kidding. I think it is funny. Not sure whether we will go misappropriation or reckless depletion. The misappropriation route is certainly a lot less sordid.

Good luck with that one. It will take you well over 50,000 in legals to get to trial and your success will be crappy if you go in throwing around the word affair.

You clearly need a lot of help but, you need to really understand this:

http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...-mossip-13753/

What is sad for the Court is the amount of time, money, energy, and emotional angst, that these parties have engaged in to convince themselves, the other party, the children, their friends, the professionals involved, and now the Court, that their truth is the “real truth”; that their version of events is what actually happened.

I would read that main thread and the case law attached to it... It could save you a lot of heart ache and money.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[stripes]

I know this is somewhat off-topic, but one very good litmus test for the next boyfriend/girlfriend/partner is how s/he deals with joint custody issues relating to children from previous relationships. If I was dating someone who behaved like the MS Mom's ex or the OP's ex, I can't imagine the relationship would get anywhere.

[DowntroddenDad]

I know there isn't a lot of difference between sole custody and joint custody for reasonable people, but for unreasonable people the slight differences can be very important.

I can't travel out of the country with my daughter on a vacation. I can't guarantee that I'll get the required travel consents from him.

While sole custody can be something used to "stick it to the ex" - joint custody can be used to "control" the ex and children.

My GF has been awarded sole custody of her kids, and she still has to get travel consents from her ex. In fact she did that this week since her kids will be going with their grandfather on a trip down south. Luckily he has been reasonable on this.

[MS Mom]

I know there isn't a lot of difference between sole custody and joint custody for reasonable people, but for unreasonable people the slight differences can be very important.

I can't travel out of the country with my daughter on a vacation. I can't guarantee that I'll get the required travel consents from him.

While sole custody can be something used to "stick it to the ex" - joint custody can be used to "control" the ex and children.

[stripes]

I think many people react strongly to the words "sole custody", because that's often tossed around by parents who just really want to stick it to the other party. It's now clear that that's not why you were interested.

I like the idea of dropping or reducing SS in exchange for him paying back the line of credit - SS is often subjective and emotional (how do you fairly compensate someone for a marriage that went bad?) while the LOC is pretty black-and-white - the money is missing, he took it out, he needs to put it back. You would probably see the money quicker that way if you tried to realize it through an SS claim.

I also like the idea of holding out joint custody as something that you are willing to negotiate on, in exchange for some of the items on your wish list. As one of the other posters said, you know that you're probably going to end up with joint custody no matter what, so you might as well see what you can get for it. If your ex thinks that getting joint custody represents some sort of big victory, he may be willing to trade some other things for it so he can feel like he "won".

[FB_]

Once they put their boots under someone else's bed the old family is soon but a memory.

In my opinion, it usually comes down to money. Of course "best interests of the child" is paramount in the process.

That's a pretty wide paint brush you're using there.

[Beachnana]

I do not think its hostility. It enthusiasm from passionate parents. Also new posts often leave out information and the as the thread unfolds everyone understands and things calm down. Of course there are always forum members who love a argument!

[arabian]

IN MY BIASED OPINION, once they put their boots under someone else's bed the old family is soon but a memory.

In my opinion, it usually comes down to money. Of course "best interests of the child" is paramount in the process.

[engineer]

The line of credit is still around, he maxed it out just before we split. No other accounts are joint.

I love your thinking on the "hard and fast" approach, and I absolutely plan to hit him with everything at once under a deadline. My ex tends to deal with issues singly; he can't cope if he has several things running in parallel and he doesn't do well with a ticking clock.

I hear what many posters say about lawyers wanting to drive up the costs, but mine really has been very good about identifying issues that are not worth pursuing. He recommends driving towards settlement and to focus on the issues we can absolutely demonstrate through documentation and records.

In the original post I was only looking for what kinds of things I would need for justifying sole custody in order to get it sorted quickly and at low cost. The status quo isn't going to change regardless of whether it is sole or joint because the ex isn't going to change. I wish he would take more of an active interest in the kids, and had he done so when we were together, we probably wouldn't be where we are now. It was an ongoing subject of discussion, and I tried every approach imaginable. I admit I was a little taken aback by the hostility this question garnered.

[arabian]

Is the joint account now closed?

So you tally everything up and present it to him with your notice of motion. In your notice of motion you list specific demands for the information you require. You make sure that there is a deadline date for him to provide the information. The sooner the better.

I see too many people making the mistake of bouncing requests for disclosure back and forth with no deadlines. I would therefore recommend that every request you make is filed in court. Don't waste time on mere letter writing back and forth.

Hit hard and hit fast. 30 days is more than enough time for him to get his documentation in order.

Meanwhile, while the clock is ticking, you can entertain offers to settle.

[engineer]

Thanks. I am indeed a math person. Probably the mathiest engineer that doesn't work in academia. My ex is also an engineer, but he is a bit foggy when it comes to data. He is not a feeling person at all, he lacks empathy. Most people describe him as cold, to be honest.

Other than that, you have pretty much got it right. I only focused this on the custody right now because the financials are easier to communicate as they are numbers based. I have good records and lots of supporting documents.

My lawyer said the same thing as you said - although we can go for sole custody and have a decent argument, it would come at a cost. We can let him have joint custody in exchange for something else, and the truth is I will be making the decisions anyway because the primary residence will be with me.

At first, he said he would of course provide CS for both kids. Then he saw the tables. He is trying to get from under supporting the oldest for the cost. I can see that, and of course he will try whatever he thinks might work. This will be tough, though. He has been her dad for many years.

I have loads of history showing antagonism and failure to cooperate. Since he was away for much of the last three years, we sent emails much more frequently than we would have normally - time difference, etc made having long conversations where decisions had to be made more difficult over the phone. Note that on occasion, I would acquiesce to his opinion to keep the peace, if whatever we were talking about wasn't life threatening anyway. Mostly, important things for the kids didn't get missed because I would take an executive decision based on the facts that were in front of me and I was the only parent there to decide. I could keep doing this, no problem. Most of life's major decisions - religion and education planning - were made long ago. Neither of us would withhold medical or dental treatment.

I would also rather have unscheduled access over constantly having to reschedule. My youngest is nearly 13, and I already coordinate her growing social schedule with everything else. I do go to some lengths to accommodate him when he is available.

You have a good idea on lowering SS to get back the money he spent and he might just go for it.

One advantage I do have is that he has no idea of the amount of data I have uncovered. When I said in my first post that he hadn't told me he had married and brought his wife to Canada I wasn't indignant - the point was that he had no idea I knew about any of it. He has just learned that the life he kept secret for so long was not so well concealed, after all. Once I knew about this other relationship and went through the accounts, I started digging. Only then did I realise that the problem wasn't finding things, it was organising the masses of data that were uncovered. It was at once staggering and oddly reassuring - at this point, I could wrap my head around where the money went.

Am I pissed off about the betrayal? Not so much. I feel more betrayed by the fact that I thought he was a lot smarter than this.

He hasn't disclosed his marriage on his Affidavit for Joint Custody and he hasn't disclosed the significant debts he had prior to cohabitation (I have the hard copies). As a result of his failure to disclose, we will be asking for all documents related to the loan made by his employer, his expense reports, and other documents related to his travels. He won't want to go to the finance and legal department to get those, so this will be an onerous task. My lawyer indicated that many people settle simply because they don't want to get the documents. The purpose of the case conference, for me, apart from getting a start on sorting the CS and SS, is to force him to wake up, face what he has spent, and return the funds to the line of credit. (That is the only remaining joint account.) I am really trying to avoid court.

Wasn't going to go into the loan in this thread. I have loads of other financial issues that may go into other threads, we'll see. Like I said, the financial arguments are a little easier to communicate - dates, transactions, assets, debts.

[Rioe]

You are obviously a math person, and it sounds like your ex is more of a feelings person. You may find When Math People and Feelings People Negotiate - High Conflict Institute a very useful read.

Being a fact-driven engineer is all well and good, but court doesn't work that way. Both sides present a judge with what they want (facts), provide excerpts from legal precedents to support their argument (more facts), and whoever has the most eloquent lawyer usually wins (how pretty the spreadsheet is). Sometimes a certain judge just likes things set up a certain way.

Before you get to that point though, you might be able to convince your ex to negotiate with you and come to an agreement without court. You need to figure out his golden apple, and figure out a way to get close enough to it that he will accept yours.

I hope I've encapsulated well here:

• He wants joint custody so he doesn't look bad, and you want sole custody to make you and your child's lives easier.
• He wants reasonable and liberal access to the younger child, but not a spelled out schedule. You want to not force her to take unwanted overnights.
• You want SS because of the damage to your career while you built up his. He probably won't want to pay it.
• You want CS and section 7 for both children, because he was essentially a father to the older step-child as well as the younger child. He will likely want to only pay for the biological child.
• You want him to pay you back your share of the joint money (you have closed all joint accounts by now, right?) he took from behind your back to pay off a personal debt.

There's probably a lot more you can determine about each of these categories based on how well you know him.

Look on the sliding scale of each of these items, and decide where you would be willing to budge and where you absolutely won't. Then use one area to balance another.

I'll start with the custody thing as that's where your thread has spent the most time so far.

It sounds like you want sole custody because you believe your ex would not make good decisions on behalf of the child, out of disinterest or inability to engage in discussion with you. Could you prove that in court? Is there a documented history of you having difficulty getting important things decided because he was uncooperative or antagonistic? Have you got records of opportunities being missed? How have you dealt with these situations in the past? Would you be able to keep doing it? Some people with joint custody deal with uncooperative exes by giving them a deadline, and making it clear that they will take non-response as assent. The way you describe it, joint custody is very important to him. Technically, he has joint custody right now. How has it been working out? Unless you can point to specific documented failures, he would probably win in court. So use this as his apple, since you wouldn't be giving up anything you probably wouldn't lose in court, as noted by previous posters. If he'll agree to CS for the older child and section 7 for tuition, you'll go along with joint custody, for example.

Offer to lower your request for SS from mid amount to low amount or whatever in exchange for getting back the joint money he spent. Etc. It's all about negotiation.