Custody and Visitation

[007]

Hello Members:
I hope I explain this correct. It is a second hand information.
My sister has a co-worker (female) who is separated with 2 kids (15 & 12)
From what I was told a lot of bad stuff happened which affected the kids a great deal. The separation agreement states: Father has visitation every other weekend. The kids refused to see their Father and as a result he filed a motion for CS reduction and police inforced visitation. The Mother replied and filed for sole custody. It went to court. CS is dealt with and for the children OCL appointed a children's lawyer. In the meantime the kids went to their bi-weekly visitation with the Father. It is not going very well and the children told the Father they don't want to see him every 2 weeks. They also told the children's lawyer. Just recently the children had a meeting with the lawyer and the Father and they made the same statements in the presence of the lawyer and the Father. From what my sister told me he ignoring the childrens statement and told the children shortly after: "I will pick you up at the usual time and place". Obviously the children feel very uncomfortable to see their Father after what has been said in the meeting. The custody hearing/court is the end of this month and I suppose that is when the OCL report is presented to the judge and a ruling is made.
I have been through a similar situation years ago but we never went to court. I had a problem with my daughter wanting to see me. I stepped back and it took me over a year to work things out - a lot of patience, understanding and caring. It worked and we are 80% there. She is still not open to my girlfriend but at this time this is not important to either of us and it might happen in time. I don't have a lot of knowledge in that respect and to me it would make only common sense to listen to what a 15 & 12 year old has to say. Am I wrong? Can one of you shed some light on this? I agreed to help my sister's friend and I hope I provided enough information to get one of your Member's opinion. Thank you

[HammerDad]

First, unless the NCP is in the hospital or jail, they parenting their child. It is parenting time, not visitation......

Secondly, until the court order otherwise, the children are to do what the existing court order says.

A judge will begin to listen to the wishes of the children at the age of 12, depending on maturity etc. From there, the judge will make a decision based upon the legitimacy of the childs reasoning. If the childs reasons are flakey and it is just because they don't get to get away with murder at the NCP's house, well, the judge isn't likely to care and will order that parenting time continue.

The CP has the obligation to facilitate the relationship of the children with the other parent. Yes, the kids may not want to go, but it is the CP's obligation to make them understand that it is in their best interests (unless the NCP is a danger to the children). Yes, the CP may not like causing the children to go, and in the background can file a motion to change the parenting time provisions, but until that order is changed, the kids should be going.

Realistically the 15y/o should be able to determine if they are going or not. They are at an age where their opinions carry more weight. The 12y/o is likely going to have to wait a bit.

Personally, what should be done is get the kids and the NCP into counselling to try and determine why they are so against spending time with their other parent and see what the NCP can do to remedy that. Kids need both parents.

[007]

Thank you. I am sure you are correct in your answer. From what I was told there is a lot more to it and the children don't just say this because it does not fit in their schedule. I don't know this man but what my sister told me he had numerous affairs and the last one was over 3 years. He moved in and out of home every few month and the children witnessed a lot of drama. Apparently he is very demanding and gets easy out of control. There was an incident with throwing something and almost hit one of the kids. (OPP report). In short, I am sure you are right what you said. It seams to me that it my not be in the best interest for the children (in this case) to be forced to see their Father after 3 years of drama. Hopefully a judge will see that and give the children the opportunity to get some distance. Better yet maybe the Father should get some counseling to learn how to deal with his children. Been there done that - not the counseling - I had enough common sense to understand when kid's are hurt because of the parents mistake.

[HammerDad]

If there is an issue with NCP's parenting ability, request their parenting be supervised. It is less dramatic and still promotes contact.

[Mess]

If the kids didn't want to go to school because they heard one of the teacher's had an affair, would you keep them at home?

[Access Dad]

Thank you. I am sure you are correct in your answer. From what I was told there is a lot more to it and the children don't just say this because it does not fit in their schedule. I don't know this man but what my sister told me he had numerous affairs and the last one was over 3 years. He moved in and out of home every few month and the children witnessed a lot of drama. Apparently he is very demanding and gets easy out of control. There was an incident with throwing something and almost hit one of the kids. (OPP report). In short, I am sure you are right what you said. It seams to me that it my not be in the best interest for the children (in this case) to be forced to see their Father after 3 years of drama. Hopefully a judge will see that and give the children the opportunity to get some distance. Better yet maybe the Father should get some counseling to learn how to deal with his children. Been there done that - not the counseling - I had enough common sense to understand when kid's are hurt because of the parents mistake.

It is unfortunate that he may have had an affair, but in my opinion, it's not a reason for his children to stop seeing their Father.

I would assume that mom hates dad's guts and wishes he was dead. That hatred could have spilled over into the children's minds whether intentionally or unintentionally. I personally don't think it's right to be "searching" for ways on how to make it so children can stop seeing their father as long as he's not a danger to them in any way. It can be worked out. Whatever happened with him and his ex is really between them and had nothing to do with the kids though I understand their anger.

[Tayken]

If the kids didn't want to go to school because they heard one of the teacher's had an affair, would you keep them at home?

Brilliant! Honestly Mess... Your replies could be put into a really quick and small book that is not only informative but funny too.

"The Custody and Access "Mess" Parents Create"
by Mess

[007]

Thank you all for your time to reply. Everyone has a good point. I am not involved in this, just did my sister a favour to ask in behalf of her friend. Even though I don't know all the details, the parts I was told make me shake my head in disbelieve that a husband and father can do this. No - I would not keep my kids at home because the teacher had an affair but if my kids would tell me the teacher scares them I would want to know why and act accordingly. My understanding from your post is, one has to see what a judge decides since he would have all the details. Most likely the kids just wait until they are old enough to have a say for sure. Sometimes the family courts try to fix things but they make it worse. If there is a problem with your kids because of separations or divorce, it's not the kids fault. As a parent you have to figure out a way to make it work. Enforcing what the law states does not always work - it's a guideline. I guess that is as far as I can go. I have a pretty good idea what to pass on to my sister. Thank you again for your input - appreciated.

[dinkyface]

The key point is that the nature of the relationship between parents while kids are together has little to do with the quality of relationship that dad will have directly with the kids after the parents are split.

*How dad relates to ex is NOT how dad relates to kids*

All must protect the right for kids to have good relationships with both parents.

But too often, one parent cannot understand this because they are too caught up in anger at their ex.

[Access Dad]

I am not involved in this, just did my sister a favour to ask in behalf of her friend.

Is this like in the movie "Analyze This" when Robert DeNiro tells Billy Crystal that he has a "friend" who's having panic attacks?

[pasconsultant]

Hi
My name is Joseph Goldberg and I think I can help you
with the problem you are having. It sounds to me like you
may have problems with parental alienation. Are you at
all familar with this term ? I am an expert in this field and
I work helping parents and their lawyers on these types
of cases.
Please visit my website at - Goldberg & Associates
If you would like to contact me directly please write to me
at jgoldberg@cspas.org ( I am also the Founder of the
Canadian Sympsoium for Parental Alienation Syndrome.)
I do charge a fee for a consultation. Perhaps if you would
like to go into more details with me I can tell you how I'd
be able to best help you.