Hi to Ottawa Divorce Forum

[kandkdad]

My wife and I have been married for just over 4 years and we have two young children (3 and 10 months). At this current time our incomes our drastically different. I work full time and make good money and she works part time for minimum wage. My salary pays all of the bills and debt with her pay covering the food, gas for the cars and any extra expenses that come up. Over the years our lack of financial responsibility has caused us to accumulate debt in the $115,000 range. This has put a lot of strain on our marriage and the fact that I am the only one that deals with it put a lot of stress on my shoulders. Over the last several months we have been arguing constantly. Things are starting to bother me that never did before and I am also having trouble letting things go where previously they would have not bothered me. I have told her that I am unhappy and we agreed to work on the issues but unfortunately the progress to resolve our issues has not had the results that we both desired and we seem to be arguing more and more. I am afraid that my oldest is staring to be affected by our arguing. I still love my wife but find myself no longer in love with her.

I have been trying to consult a lawyer in my area to ask questions in regards to marriage, specifically in regards to support. Because we are financially strapped I can’t afford the normal retainer to consult a lawyer and have turned to the Ottawa divorce community for some answers.

But that is not my real dilemma. I have given myself a time frame to allow us to work things out (although I doubt we will be able to) before I proceed with a divorce. My oldest son has started to understand the whole Santa thing this year and is getting excited for Christmas. If my wife and I separate before Christmas there is a good chance that it could be ruined for him so I want to wait until after the holidays sometime in the New Year. The dilemma I am having is that it is not fair to my wife that I am contemplating divorce now but waiting to tell her until after Christmas. I know my wife well and know that if she knew now that I was looking at divorcing in the New Year she would want to end it now which could ruin my son’s first Christmas with Santa. Any of the arguments we have had lately either one of us could have asked for a divorce and the other would not have been surprised so unless we don’t have any arguments after Christmas then I should be able to tell her I want a divorce without her being totally shocked.

So I am not sure if I should mention anything now or wait until I am ready to proceed with the separation and save everybody’s Christmas?

[shellshocked22]

Sorry to hear about your situation. Just a few random thoughts....

1) WAIT until the New Year so you don't ruin your son's Christmas. If you think things are ugly now, wait until you tell her about the divorce. To me, that's a "no brainer".

2) I would really think long and hard about divorce. If you think you have financial problems now, wait until Family Law screws you over. Assuming you weren't common law prior to marriage (the law considers common law same as married when calculating "length of marriage" for support purposes), Spousal support will likely only be 2 to 4 years (one half to one year duration per year of marriage but again, remember common law "counts" as married. Spousal support is also deductible.

3) The BIG $$$ drain will be Child support which is non - deductible to you. So, if you make good money (not sure of your definition of big money is ) and you are in the top (46% ) marginal tax rate, for you to pay her $1,000 per month you will have to GROSS $2,000. Google "child support tables Ontario" and you can see. Also see www.mysupportcalculator.ca . This will give you a ballpark idea.

4) It sounds like your tension is mainly financial but getting divorced is going to make it even worse I'm afraid. Also, once divorced the govt strips you of many "rights" non- divorced people take for granted. If your wife is crazy with money, the "child support" you pay her is up to HER to spend. If she wants to buy dope and gamble with it, the govt gives their blessing. You have NO SAY on how she spends it. You will not likely be able to take a less stressful, but lower paying job since the govt will "inpute" your old wage. That is, you will pay support based on the "old" pay you no longer have. Even going bankrupt won't help you.

5) Seriously, at least not getting divorced you have more control. Most guys have NO effing idea how punishing the system is to the "higher wage earner" (ie. YOU !). If you make good money and she makes little cash, you are REALLY screwed.

6) Research this stuff thoroughly before you go down that road.

If you want to talk further, feel free to pm me and we can talk. I'm still "shellshocked" at how unfair the system is to guys who work hard and whose wives make a lot less money. Trust me, you'll be shocked at the screwing you're about to be given (without even a kiss lol !).

Good luck

[raven70]

Do your best to make it work

I will be brief since shellshocked seem to explain the reality well.
My advice,

1-Try again to make it work
2-If it does not work out, you need this to be amicable for financial,access
reasons.

Dont underwieght Spousal Support, with young children involved and a
substantial difference in income, the duration could be indefinite and the
quatum table amount could make you want to pass out.

In a blink of an eye,trips to court,and legal bills you could end up in a
basement suite-renting, eating noodles.

Be careful and ,may I suggest to be as supportive and amicable as possible.
You really don't want this to head south in a big way,the Law is not on your side.

Good Luck, Raven

[LostFather]

My wife and I have been married for just over 4 years and we have two young children (3 and 10 months). At this current time our incomes our drastically different. I work full time and make good money and she works part time for minimum wage. My salary pays all of the bills and debt with her pay covering the food, gas for the cars and any extra expenses that come up. Over the years our lack of financial responsibility has caused us to accumulate debt in the $115,000 range. This has put a lot of strain on our marriage and the fact that I am the only one that deals with it put a lot of stress on my shoulders. Over the last several months we have been arguing constantly. Things are starting to bother me that never did before and I am also having trouble letting things go where previously they would have not bothered me. I have told her that I am unhappy and we agreed to work on the issues but unfortunately the progress to resolve our issues has not had the results that we both desired and we seem to be arguing more and more. I am afraid that my oldest is staring to be affected by our arguing. I still love my wife but find myself no longer in love with her.

I have been trying to consult a lawyer in my area to ask questions in regards to marriage, specifically in regards to support. Because we are financially strapped I can’t afford the normal retainer to consult a lawyer and have turned to the Ottawa divorce community for some answers.

But that is not my real dilemma. I have given myself a time frame to allow us to work things out (although I doubt we will be able to) before I proceed with a divorce. My oldest son has started to understand the whole Santa thing this year and is getting excited for Christmas. If my wife and I separate before Christmas there is a good chance that it could be ruined for him so I want to wait until after the holidays sometime in the New Year. The dilemma I am having is that it is not fair to my wife that I am contemplating divorce now but waiting to tell her until after Christmas. I know my wife well and know that if she knew now that I was looking at divorcing in the New Year she would want to end it now which could ruin my son’s first Christmas with Santa. Any of the arguments we have had lately either one of us could have asked for a divorce and the other would not have been surprised so unless we don’t have any arguments after Christmas then I should be able to tell her I want a divorce without her being totally shocked.

So I am not sure if I should mention anything now or wait until I am ready to proceed with the separation and save everybody’s Christmas?

Some good advice on here. I can tell you having gone through it. Making just over 50k with two children cs is almost 800/m. Then you get into daycare..and i didn't have ss.

You wife will most certainly go for custody and your access will be every second weekend if your lucky.

Do your research...consult a lawyer...get everything lined up so that you have your children equally. Wait...wait...wait. If u take this thing to the courts you could be easily looking at 100k before its all over. She'll most likely get legal aid and they will financially destroy you more ways than you can possibley imagine.

Sorry for doom and gloom...but it needs to be said. I will help as well if you want. I will not sugar coat it for you though. You can pm me if you wish.

Welcome to the fourm.

[Lorac]

Hi K&K

I would hate to think the two of you would split because of financial problems. This sounds like a typical case of "not falling out of love" but falling into "debt". I would suggest you get a financial advisor to put both of you back on track. You need someone to take control of your debt as you are not able to at this point in time. These people are qualified to help those that are in debt and will make a budget for both you and your wife. You also both need to see a qualified marriage counsellor. You must remember why you both chose each other to be your life partner...you have 2 beautiful children that need both of their parents in their lives... I think the best Christmas present you can give yourself, your wife and your children is a loving home.
While I realize this is a platform for those going through separation and divorce sometimes it's not always the answer.

L

[kandkdad]

Thank you for all the advice. Unfortunately shellshocked22 I wish the problems where only the finances. There are a lot of other issue that are causing this unhappiness. The problem is that to change my wife would have to 180 her personality. She has been this way for as long as we have known each other and to expect her to change her personality would be asking to much. I am not sure what has changed in me as I said the things she does never used to bother me this much but now I seem to be pissed off all the time and can't seem to let things go even after she apologize. I am sure you don't want to hear all our problems but here is an example of what I mean. Last week she texted me at work telling me she picked up a another shift at work. Now at the same time that she was texting me I was trying to prepare a report for my boss so he could take it to an important meeting. He gave me some extra time being that I am new to this job. So I was plugging away at the report and I get the text. Now it was close to when he needed the report so I should have let the text alone and not answered but if I didn't I knew that I was going to get a whole bunch more texts from her a questions from me. So I stupidly answered the text. After I answered the first one she sends another one. Again stupidly I answer. Now I have a old school phone that is definitely not built for texting. So all my answers are short like "k" and "fine". Well then she texts "I love you" so I send back the text "u2". I admit I should have not answered text to begin with but I tried to please both the wife and the boss. Well she didn't like my return text "in the all the years we have been to together you have never said u2 to me its ok whatever". Well then now I go in defensive mode(which happens a lot lately). So I try and . text her back saying "Busy no time to text a lot". So she texts back "whatever". So that gets me pissed off now and on top now I have missed my boss going in the meeting and have to rush to get the report done. So any way my new boys lays into to me because I sit beside him and he knows I was texting instead of doing the report for him. Anyway I didn't blame her for me getting in trouble because I chose to text her back. But I was still pissed I got "whatever" from her when I told her I was really busy at work. So the days goes on with us both being mad I am sure. I have a meeting at 11:00 so I turn my phone on silent for the meeting. Well my god I forgot to turn it back on. I realize that it was still on silent at 4:30 and what do I see some of the nastiest messages I have ever received in my life. Well that just set me to a new level of pissed. No I know we were both in the wrong there and even after we talked and she apologized I couldn't drop it. I don't know why I have held onto that anger towards her even until this day. So know if she says something inappropriate or almost anything I fly off the handle at her. I know that I am part of the issue or maybe even the whole issue but I don't want it to get to the point of us hating each other because this will make the split worse for everybody. I am not sure how this looks to somebody outside the relationship but it is hell for me in it. I am pissed off all the time and my oldest is now starting to pick up on it. I don't want to spend the rest of my life pissed off and I don't see how anything is going to change because when she does stuff like that it is not out of the ordinary she has done that ever since we have been together. I just was able to let go before now I can't.

[billm]

From your post, I think you should try marriage counselling.

Also, try using paragraphs!

[KeepSmiling]

He doesn't need marriange counselling - he needs personal counselling. It's his anger issue he needs to figure out.

Easy way out is to always blame the person beside you.

So, no matter who he ends up beside - he will probably always never be satisfied.

Financial problems and 2 little kids can send the best of us over the edge - he needs to learn how to cope and to change his lifestyle to get back on track. He probably feels like he's on a merry - go - round that won't let him off! She probably feels the same way!

Maybe both of them need to recognize that there is no easy button.

[Pursuinghappiness]

kandkdad:

Are you f'ing serious?!?

I read that whole spiel of crap and you both sound like toddlers.

It is NOT a good idea to get divorced because you have anger management issues that you haven't grown up and dealt with. Someone texts "whatever" and you go apeshit and can't control yourself to the point where your kids are starting to pick up on your irrational behavior???!? Your wife doesn't know that during busy work hours that she needs to give you some space so you can get through the workday and makes a huge deal out of you abbreviating a text??? Seriously? It sounds like little high school kids having a facebook brawl.

I wouldn't even remember such idiocy let alone being able to recite the exact details and times..that's insane.

Grow up, take off your diaper and go get yourself into some personal counselling and some marriage counselling. You are not going to fix your problems by getting a divorce and you're a parent. You owe it to your kids to make an effort to save your marriage. If you can't, then by all means get divorced.

Other suggestion, get a new phone with some smiley faces...that way you can include a with you abbreviation so your equally immature wife doesn't assume you don't love her because you didn't add enough words into your response.

Jesus Christ on a cracker what a load of nonsense. Right now I'm .

[WorkingDAD]

Enter key?

Commom man! Do you have Enter key on your keyboard?

[kandkdad]

Sorry for the long one paragraph response. When I start writing I am not thinking about readability just trying to get the point out.

Although Pursuinghappiness is correct, the response was still a little harsh. Bringing out these childish actions in each other is not something that is new with us. This has happened of the whole course of our relationship. This has not changed it has just gotten worse as our situation has gotten worse. Believe me I have thought long and hard about this. This is not some rash decision that I have made. This is something that has built up over time. Yes we both owe it to our children to work things out, but they also deserve a happy house to grow up in and unless something drastically changes we won’t be able to provide that for them.

Yes I do agree that I should seek some counseling for my anger issues, but that I don’t think it will fix the compatibility issues between my wife and me. This seems to be something that we both ignored before we got married. I had several friends and family talk to me about this before we got married and I didn’t listen to them. I think I was concentrating on the good times we had instead of looking at the bad times. Now it seems we have a lot more bad times then good times. This should have been a clue from the beginning.

Although not professional help we have tried to mend things on our own. We started making time for each other like going on date night for example. I will admit it has got better at times but then we always fall back on the same thing. We also tried to communicate with each other more. We started writing in journals everyday to help express how we were feeling. If one of us got upset at the other we would write in the journal and let the other one read it. This lasted for about a week and then we feel back into the old routine. For us to be successful in marriage counseling we both need to put the effort into it otherwise it has been a waste of time. There is nothing that I have seen on both sides that shows that we both want to put any lasting effort into fixing this. To tell you the truth I don’t want to have to work on our marriage every day. I realize that a marriage does require work from time to time but to have to put the effort in every day I don’t think we are both up for it.



Believe me this is not what I wanted. This is not how this was supposed to be, but I can't change the fact that this is who we are. If this continues the path that we are on this is going to more damage than good.

[shellshocked22]

Hey my friend....

I can appreciate how that would be irritating BUT like the other posters have said, if you think THAT pissed you off, JUST WAIT until she RUINS the rest of your life with HUGE CS payments, likely cutting off access to the kids, possibly Spousal support payments, her perhaps getting "free" legal aid while you get bankrupted trying to pay for your lawyer. You also having to pay the bulk of daycare costs (young kids) for years IN ADDITION to huge CS payments. I really don't think you fully appreciate the hell you are about to enter. If the snotty text thing irritated you, you'll lose your effing mind once you get creamed by her in court and your life is ruined.

Seriously, figure out a way to deal with her. Drink heavily or take (prescription of course lol) drugs if you have to but learn how to handle her

Basically, I think all women are a little (lot) nutty so the next one will likely not be much better lol.

Really, figure out a way to deal with her (ie. phone, tell her you can only check it at lunch and end of day; blame your boss if you have to). Drink if you need to in order to tolerate her at end of day until you can get back to work.

IF you really can't take it, go to a lawyer and make a PLAN. For example, WAIT until you get her working FULL time. If you're working overtime, STOP it and get your income DOWN as much as possible. The more the "gap" in your two incomes the more you'll get screwed. Ideally, try to get her income MORE than yours; that way she might have to pay YOU (wouldn't that be sweet lol).

Keep your mouth shut (in all due respect); see a lawyer, make a PLAN. I still don't think you realize the danger you're in my friend !

[billm]

Whoa - again its the loud minority that have problems and come to this forum usually - shellshocked22 has no reasonable basis for saying things such as "likely cutting off access to the kids"

I'm content in my separation, have my kids half the time, pay offset table amount of CS, reasonable SS. My ex had not worked for years, and after separation went out and now works full time and makes a little more than half of what I do. My youngest was only 4 when we split. We spent very little on lawyers.

I think the CS amounts (full or offset) are reasonable.

When I first separated, I thought the worst might happen to me and my kids, but if you follow the advice from the majority here, make sure all is settled BEFORE you separate, you should do fine - hope for the best, plan for the worst though, but don't be paranoid, and keep communications open with your spouse, and control your lawyers!!

[shellshocked22]

OK, agreed I was painting the worse case with respect to kids. HOWEVER, I suspect you'll agree she has the POTENTIAL to significantly REDUCE his access to the children. Afterall, most men usually only get the EOW and once per week visit; of course it's just under the 40% point which can give a little financial relief. I don't know about you, but getting a 60% reduction in access to your own kids is significant in my book.

I'm glad you're happy with the amount of CS you pay. However, in cases of higher income payors the amount of CS and SS is RIDICULOUS, especially given you can't deduct it so you have to gross $2 to pay $1 for CS. It basically rewards being lazy and not working when there was no good reason you couldn't. yes, in some cases it doesnt make sense for a spouse to work but do you agree the system is super fair to men, come on !!!

I'm also glad you're happy in how your ex spends your hard earned CS. However, we all know there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY to how she spends it. Personally, the idea of her spending "child support" out drinking all night at clubs bothers me and don't tell me all women are "perfect" and put the kids first. Those that pay huge CS I suspect the kids are lucky to see 25 cents on the dollar. Don't claim that the govt will correct this, I'm not saying the kids are starving and wearing rags, only that a good chunk (for some "custodial parents' - can't be politically incorrect can we ?) often spend it on luxuries for them and NOT the kids.

In practise, those exes who enjoy ridiculous support payments don't even bother to try and work. "Maybe" you can get min wage inputed but even then, its only a couple of hundred bucks off the 1000s they are screwing you out of.

Yes, not every guy is screwed over, IF you were smart enough to make sure you married a girl who earned similar money. However, if you were stupid enough to marry someone who didn't pull their weight financially you will be PUNISHED severely. I still think the lucrative amount of support Family Law glady dolls out encourages divorce for some folks !

Having said all the above, I realize many women get screwed over by lazy, deadbeat guys and I think thats also wrong; men should support their kids. BUT, all the punishing rules are put in place for a small minority of these idiots BUT they end up punishing hard working guys whose "partners" get bored and want us to pay while they party with strange guys. Ironically, the guys they target laugh anyway since if you have nothing to take, they can't hurt you !!!!

Sorry, I just have a problem when the system punishes a guy for working his balls off for his family only to rip him apart when his wife gets "bored" and wants what "she is owed ". Hmm, do you think if the govt had to pay "what she is owed" it would be anywhere near so generous !!

[billm]

Yes, shellshocked22, you are painting the worst case scenario.

Also I don't agree with your over the top wording (RIDICULOUS, NO ACCOUNTABILITY, out drinking all night at clubs, lazy and not working, hard earned CS, kids are lucky to see 25 cents on the dollar, often spend it on luxuries, didn't pull their weight financially, encourages divorce, want us to pay while they party with strange guys, the system punishes a guy for working his balls off,... ad nauseum).

Get a grip shellshocked22 - you (your situation and your whining) are the exception, not the rule. Some Family Law matters are BS, but most people make their own beds.

Things are not nearly as bad (for MOST), as you would like to paint, and your over the top wording does not help your arguments.

Also, stating CS ...is RIDICULOUS, especially given you can't deduct it so you have to gross $2 to pay $1 for CS is a silly argument as CS amounts are BASED on pretax earnings (ie the CS amounts are what you should spend for CS from your AFTER TAX income). You either intentionally have your head up your ... or you don't understand simple mathematical concepts.