I need lots of help!

[dlbrown]

Not sure if this the correct forum, but like the whole process I'm embarking on, I need to start somewhere....

Married with 2 kids, girl 9 and boy 16. (not that I think this matters at all, but the boy in not biologically mine. The bio Dad has never given and money or been seen or heard from in 15 years)
My wife and I have been living separate lives for many years. She has not had a paying job for over 6 years (she is very heavily invested in the church and feels like she is doing God's work....she's busy....just no pay!). I make about $80k a year. We have about $215,000 in debt, and about $350,000 in assets. We live ok, but not any money left at the end of the month.
I desperately want out, but I have no idea how to even get started. I cannot afford to get a place of my own unless she gets a job. She knows this and thus refuses to get a job. I can't really afford a huge legal bill. I have tried to get her to meet with my councilor which also offers a mediation service, but she will not even listen to me. (can't reason with someone who is unreasonable) I want joint custody and am willing to pay some spousal support, but that is only is she gets a job.
- We jointly own the house, so I cannot sell it without her on side, correct?
- can/will a judge force her to get a job?
- if/while you separate, who decides where the kids live?
- how do you 'declare' your separation (we have not slept in the same bed for a long, long time!)
- is spousal support always determined by the court?
- is child support always decided by the court?

I feel so trapped!!!
any and all advice would be appreciated....

[dinkyface]

All of these things can be settled by negotiating directly with your partner. This is the ideal course, very smart, and saves everybody MUCH money (and you're not buying new cars for lawyer). Of course you will each have different ideas about what is fair and what is best for the kids.

If you cannot come to an agreement about what is fair/best, then you turn to the family law system and various established guidelines to find out what they say is fair/best. Again, there is lots of info out there, and you can learn about it on your own. Ideally BOTH of you spend the time to learn it.

Lawyers can help you learn about this, help you negotiate/communicate, and help you with technical process/paperwork stuff. Mediators can also do the same ... but cannot represent you in court. You can also use an Arbitrator - someone you both give the authority to make some decisions that are binding on you (basically an out-of-court judge). Many lawyers can also be hired as mediators or arbitrators. But often a mediator is just someone with a few psych degrees and not a lot of legal depth (beware!)

You can control how much the lawyer does for you. They can be just an advisor/educator/strategist, and you do all the communication/negotiation, or you can hand full control over to them (and your bank account).

If still cannot come to agreement, then you go to the court/judge, and THEY will tell you what is fair/best. Again, you can speak for yourself in court, or have a lawyer speak for you. The THEORY is that if your position is aligned with the system (and your ex's is not), then you will be successful in court.

The sad truth, is that once it gets to court, for many the conflict level has risen so high that you are mired in unproductive mudslinging, legal games, delays (by the person who is already 'sitting' on - or living in - what they want), posturing (and most lawyers fully engage in this crap ... while picking out their new car).

So, start reading...here: The Supporting Families Experiencing Separation and Divorce Initiative

To get an idea of the horror that people encounter in the system, read 'Tug of War' by Justice Brownstone.

'Surviving your Divorce' is another book that that I've heard people recommend highly.

There are free Familiy Law Info sessions ... ask at the courthouse I think.

[dlbrown]

Thanks for the starting point. I think I am going to have to find a temporary home to make her realize this is real. Then, I am very hopeful she will work with me instead of just sticking her head in her bible. (ostrich in the sand)

[Rioe]

No, don't move out yet. That's the sure way to lose significant access to your children. Live in a separate bedroom, one that you can lock.

Some steps to take:

Before even talking to her about separation and divorce, prepare for the worst. Set aside all personal valuables somewhere safe (with a friend or at work) that she can't access. This MUST include all your personal important documentation, especially financial. Make copies of all joint documentation.

Then, open your own bank and credit accounts and close all the joint bank and credit accounts as much as possible. Put your pay into your own account where she cannot access it.

Finally, figure out how much money you would owe in child support based on your 2010 income. Figure out the same for her, pretending her income is minimum wage, if it isn't higher. You do this by looking up child support tables. Subtract hers (the lower) from yours, and note that amount as CS. This is the offset method which assumes 50-50 shared custody while you have by default, especially if you still live in the same house.

Figure out approximately how much spousal support she may be entitled to, because it sounds like she may have a good case This is harder to calculate, but people around here can help you out if you provide figures (length of marriage, incomes (pretend she makes minimum wage here again), etc). Call this SS.

Calculate half the debt payments and household bills for all things you were not able to close the joint accounts. Call this her share of expenses to maintain the home, although you are still paying them, as this obviously still has to be done. Then subtract it from the CS and SS total. Give her any leftover as an 'allowance' (or don't! just make sure the full CS gets included) and tell her that you need to start working on a separation agreement if she doesn't like it.

[dlbrown]

What I want doesn't seem to be unreasonable to me. There is about $135,000 worth of equity in the house (likely more like $150000, but we'll low ball it for now). The mortgage, insurance and taxes don't even add up to $1000, so that is something she could easily afford....IF she would just get a job!. We also own a cabin that's for sale. We own 1/2 the cabin with my sister. We have it listed for $118,000, but would take $100,000. So, let's say we each have $50,000. Debt is at about $80,000. I have a vehicle worth about $20,000...she has one worth maybe $2000.
So, here is my idea....
Total assets = $347,000
Total debts = $220,000
She keeps her car, the house and assumes the mortgage. I get the cabin and my car. On paper, we split the debt 50-50. That leaves her at +$112,000 and me at + $30,000. The left over $82,000 would be offset by how much I would need to pay her for spousal support. So, say it's $1000 a month for 4 years, I would take $48,000 off that total in leau of payment. (I'm not sure how the other $34,000 would get paid out to me, but this is just my basic, 'back of the napkin' idea).
We would have joint custody of the kids and they would spend 1/2 their time at my house and 1/2 their time at her house.
I have my banker crunching numbers for me and he thinks I can carry the debt and use the sale of the cabin for a down payment on my own place. I may need to get a part time job and sell my car and just buy a POS car, but at this point, I don't really care.

I just don't know how I can get her to see that this is real -and force her to get a job - without moving out (to a temporary location).

I was thinking that I could move out, tell her she has until X to find a job or we will have to sell the house....BUT i don't know if A: this is a good idea or B: I have the right to do that.....

[dlbrown]

No, don't move out yet. That's the sure way to lose significant access to your children. Live in a separate bedroom, one that you can lock.

Some steps to take:

Before even talking to her about separation and divorce, prepare for the worst. Set aside all personal valuables somewhere safe (with a friend or at work) that she can't access. This MUST include all your personal important documentation, especially financial. Make copies of all joint documentation.

Then, open your own bank and credit accounts and close all the joint bank and credit accounts as much as possible. Put your pay into your own account where she cannot access it.

Finally, figure out how much money you would owe in child support based on your 2010 income. Figure out the same for her, pretending her income is minimum wage, if it isn't higher. You do this by looking up child support tables. Subtract hers (the lower) from yours, and note that amount as CS. This is the offset method which assumes 50-50 shared custody while you have by default, especially if you still live in the same house.

Figure out approximately how much spousal support she may be entitled to, because it sounds like she may have a good case This is harder to calculate, but people around here can help you out if you provide figures (length of marriage, incomes (pretend she makes minimum wage here again), etc). Call this SS.

Calculate half the debt payments and household bills for all things you were not able to close the joint accounts. Call this her share of expenses to maintain the home, although you are still paying them, as this obviously still has to be done. Then subtract it from the CS and SS total. Give her any leftover as an 'allowance' (or don't! just make sure the full CS gets included) and tell her that you need to start working on a separation agreement if she doesn't like it.

She has no bank account. we have no joint accounts at all.

[AnarX]

I just don't know how I can get her to see that this is real -and force her to get a job - without moving out (to a temporary location).

Easy: stop giving her money.

[dlbrown]

Easy: stop giving her money.

I already have, but I'm still the one who has to pay all the bills.

[AnarX]

In that case, you have to present her with a separation agreement.

Since you said you two have not been sleeping together in a long time, I would recommend that you try to declare your date of separation around the last time you two got it on.

[dlbrown]

I've done that too....she won't even look at it let alone sign it.

[dinkyface]

Serving her with court papers will get her moving.

Suggest emailing her that if she does not engage in the process in the next 15 days, you will be initiating legal action. And suggest that she otain her own legal advice ASAP.

[dlbrown]

Thanks. Good advice......I am meeting with her tomorrow to, again, lay it all out on the line....Question....If I were to go out tomorrow and buy my own house and 'separate' that way, what are legal rights to access to my kids? I want them 1/2 the time...week on and week off, but obviously, i can"t just demand that, can I? is there a default position?

[dinkyface]

That IS your default position. Don't even THINK otherwise (unless you are happy with less).

Men screw themselves by getting into the 'asking permission' mindset - which automatically puts the other partner in a position of power - EXCUSE ME - YOU ARE JUST AS MUCH A PARENT AS YOUR PARTNER. SO ACT THAT WAY.

I think I NEED to use more CAPITAL LETTERS!!!

I understand, you may have stepped back and let her take over a lot of the parenting tasks/decisions while you were together, but you CANNOT continue that way after you split (unless you want her to have sole custody i.e. total control).

I also understand, by moving out you are taking a weaker position because you are the one uprooting your kids, taking them away from their home.

Therefore you have to have an appropriate place for your kids, and a solid plan in place to make it work. Hopefully your new place is very close by - or at least close to their schools. You need to ensure they feel they are being looked after and considered, not just as things being moved back and forth. Put some effort into thinking what can you do to make your kids happy with this new plan - little things to make the new arrangement a special adventure. There are lots of websites with info on all the little details of making 2 homes work for your kids, like how can they contact mom while at dad's house (and v.v.)? Where will their STUFF be?

You can continue to pay the (essential) bills for the house in lieu of CS payments that will eventually fall on you (assuming you are earning more).
Make sure you are not paying for her transportation or phone or cable or internet. Only mortgage/utilities/insurance/tax. Not ideal, but I think you're stuck with this until you agree on asset/house splitting. Perhaps talk to bank about reducing your mortgage payments?

[epinecone]

Starting Point..

Hi DL,

If you spend lots of time with your kids, and are actively involved in their lives, then you should remain their parent 1/2 the time.

However, unless you are really good friends, and she wants you to parent your kids half the time, you should spend the money on a lawyer before you do anything else. Do an initial consultation and see what your chances are in your area.

You need to be really sure about this because here is what is ahead of you:

1. She will have you declared In Loco Parentis to the 16 year old child. As such you will be paying the guideline amount for two kids based on your income.

2. She has not worked in 6 years, welcome to the world of spousal support.

3. Because she has not worked, I would be surprised if a judge would not impute an income against her.. So she will get to live for free on your support money. They don't seem to care if it's one person or two that make the decision about a spouse not working.

4. She no doubt already knows all of this, courtesy of any divorced or seperated people she may know. And unless she is a saint, she probably already has an expectation about her "take".

5. If she is mentally ill, (Currently or previously under treatment), or endangers the children in any way, you need to ensure your lawyer has all the facts.

6. Contact me via private message and I will share my own experiences getting nailed to the cross by a former spouse who REFUSED to get a job.

Their are some really smart people on this site (Mess, Blink, and others) who have lots of practical knowledge.

Good luck.

[dlbrown]

I'm having a first consultation meeting with my lawyer tomorrow to see if there is ANY home for my case....here is a list of stuff i"m gonna have ready. Is there anything I should add, omit? I want to make the most effective use of my time..... I feel like it's kinda hopeless, but we'll see, i guess...

Have common law date, marriage date, ages of everyone involved ready…..
Have a detailed write-up of all debts and assets
Have last year’s T4 amount
Have the date at which Tammy last worked

Questions
1. Is there any way I can force her to work?
2. If I buy my own house, what are my parental rights to access? Can they live with me ½ time right away?
3. If I leave right now, will I forfeit my access rights making her the primary care giver?
4. Because she has not worked for 6 years, how does this impact the spousal and child support payment amounts?
5. Does the fact that we never agreed, as a couple, to have her stop working have any impact on child and spousal payments?
6. Does it matter that I have repeatedly asked her to find a job? (redundant, maybe? Unnecessary question?)
7. Is there any way to force her into selling the matrimonial home?
8. Is it possible, presuming that she has an adequately paying job to secure a mortgage, that I could sell the house back to her for an amount greater than what’s owning on the mortgage. The amount would be equal to a proposed spousal settlement. (ex: outstanding mortgage is $143,000. Spousal payments of $900/month over three years = $32400. House would be sold to her for $176,400)


Anything else….anything I need to omit or change?