Question for StillPaying and Others Who 'Trust the Process'

[newerwavers]

Rockscan, thank you for your thoughtful engagement. My frustration isn't rooted in disagreement; it stems from the ongoing ad hominem attacks, childish name-calling, and evasiveness in answering questions that could facilitate a constructive conversation.

It's striking that you seem to resonate with the very core of the issue I've been trying to articulate. You've expressed it well: 'And it’s really disingenuous to the “older”/previous members who fought like hell against false accusations, through years of court, against legal aid applicants, had their kids stolen, watched their kids live in unsafe conditions, dealt with CAS and the police etc. to come on here and moan about how things aren’t fair. I have watched many posters on here lose everything to get 50/50 with their kids—including those who didn’t see their kids for years due to lies—and still they didn’t pull this.'

Your perspective is a sobering contrast to StillPaying's vision of the family court system, which he described as if it were some kind of utopia filled with sunshine, rainbows, and unicorns: 'It's easy to give up and blame the system, and most do, but for those who actually use it - the system is magical. 50/50, return of children, enforcement, equalization... where all your reasonable dreams come true.' Interestingly, StillPaying's main concerns raised on this forum have been about how to lower spousal support for an ailing ex, not about combating false CAS accusations, rampant perjury, or significant contempt.

StillPaying's magical kingdom seems completely out of sync with the grim realities that you, I, and pretty much everyone else I've spoken to who has faced a high-conflict individual in court have experienced. It seems like he had a walk in the park compared to most.

Considering that this thread has devolved into a mixture of name-calling and inaccurately cited fallacies, maybe this is why the quality of discourse on this forum has declined so significantly over the last few years. Nobody seems willing to hear different opinions anymore, too much ego has been invested, and any attempt at providing a counterpoint is promptly quashed by childish name-calling. With that said, I'll take my leave. Feel free to get the last word in. Thanks for your time.

[DivorcedDad51]

I agree with Newerwavers. Its OK for conversations to be had in a respectful manner that touches on sensitive topics, without resorting to name-calling or making assumptions about the person posting.

Personally, I went through the court process. Got a successful outcome. It took years and tens of thousands of dollars. I am zero upset about the child support I paid/continue to pay.

I am somewhat dissatisfied with the court process as we were herded through like cattle through cycles of conferences that did absolutely nothing, judges that said nothing, just kept setting dates down the road. and that I lost time with kids (and a substantial amount of money in legal fees) during that process for what should have been a default 50/50 from the onset. I wish the court system would recognize these types of scenarios quickly and flush them out asap so no time/money is squandered by parents (which could/should be put towards kids), and valuable court resources aren't wasted on such cases.

[StillPaying]

It's the specific details which are important:
Why did you leave the mat home without 50/50?
Why did ex take kids and not you?
Why years before 50/50?
How did the system not help you get it?
How did the system not help ex come to agreement?

The system is only a couple hundred dollars. If you are asking for what's reasonable without some sort of proof you did something wrong, no lawyer is needed.

People love to complain about all the conferences, which goes to my point that they don't understand the process. Case, settlement, trial management and trial scheduling conferences are all important for a successful trial. Trial is 2-3 years away the first time. 1-2 years for MTCs. You're not fighting your case at the various conferences. They all have a narrow specific target, which when complete moves you on to the next step. Sometimes you'll have multiple sc's because you're still gathering info and not ready for trial. But the various conferences are needed if you want trial. Settlements before trial are up to you.

Lie, cheat, steal and act shady or you're a sucker. Horrible advice, whether for court or "life", from someone who didn't go through or understand the system - and most likely just unsuccessful in general.

[rockscan]

Newerwaves is clearly an old poster with a new name who may or may not have been banned. It is completely ridiculous for them to come here calling foul on others when they are being evasive themselves and then battling people who have provided them info. To claim they want proof and then when someone says do the work yourself it's all there then they say no, well it's hard to have a legitimate debate.

To claim the forum is going downhill is also a fallacy. Perhaps it’s a case that people don't need the forum anymore and the ones who come to post are only here to bitch about the unfairness. The system is built to help everyone. It isn't going to be easy and if you think you are getting screwed, there are options. I find the ones who are most vocal about the “unfairness” are the ones who wanted to coast through with no repercussions.

My family had no help from the court system. Looking back I see how it has improved in the 30+ years. My husband had to endure the system and his ex's fuckshit. He had a good lawyer that we kept on top of. This forum was helpful in answering my questions that I took back to his lawyer.

If you want to have an open debate, come here with more than “unfair system”. The system is difficult and cumbersome yes but I don't believe it is unfair. If your case wasn't presented well enough for a just decision, that's not the system's fault.

[DivorcedDad51]

@Stillpaying: I can see that a conversation between us would be a waste of each of our respective time. Lets just say that there are a lot of factors that go into a court process. I played it correctly, and it took a few years and thousands of dollars. With regards to one of your questions, I am curious if you could please enlighten us on what happens when a father takes the kids....does it usually work in their favour? Curious on your thoughts on that scenario...

@Rockscan: Its curious that you continue to make assumptions about others- such as alleging that Newerwavers is an old poster with a new name- but equally give NewWaver a hard time for doing the same. The irony of such double standards isn't lost on me, and perhaps its these contradictions that have contributed to the declining health and content of this forum. Speaking of decline, the assertion that the forum isn't going downhill isn't supported by the data. Viewership and post counts indicate that this forum has become a shell of what it once was. Maybe if you followed your own advice about doing the research, you too would see this.

The issue isn't with this forum isn't just that its waning in activity, but also that its becoming an echo chamber for certain views. You mentioned that people dont need the forum anymore, could it be that people are leaving/abstaining from posting because they are tired of double standards and selective interpretation of experiences? I have read many previous threads from fathers who got grinded by an unnecessary adversarial system searching for answers, to (a) have it erroneously suggested they are bitter, (b) have their experiences minimized and told to get over it, and/or (c) have their stories twisted with falsehoods and assumptions, that they just leave saying this website is not worth it. The family court system is far from the magical utopia that Tayken and Stillpaying profess and paint it to be. Its disingenuous to imply that anyone who hasn't achieved 50/50 custody arrangement from the get-go is at fault, ignoring the complexities and the challenges posed by high-conflict individuals false accusations, financial limitations involved in separating, and a multitude of other factors.

Your family might not have received any help from the court system, and you see it as improved over the last 30 years. Thats a valid personal perspective, but the plural of anecdote is not data. There are systemic issues that many here have faced that cannot simply be chalked up to "not doing enough". If this forum aims to be a genuinely helpful resource for people navigating the family court system, it needs to foster open, respectful, and constructive discussions from a variety of perspectives- not just those who claim to have conquered the system flawlessly. Thank you for engaging in this topic and thread, and I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

[StillPaying]

It doesn't matter which new username is posting it this month, it's always the same story. The system sucks, only women win; yet somehow they have 50/50/offset.

So the system worked and you did everything right; you just feel you paid too much for a lawyer where nothing was wrong with you but felt it needed to have a top priced lawyer.

Claiming abuse with no proof gives no advantage. My ex ran off to a shelter with the kids. Ex party motion brought the kids back home. Case conference is where the judge gave ex eow until out of the shelter to protect kids. Ocl/cas may get involved causing a system's necessary delay to get right, but eventually at a motion if not conference, access will be fixed. Long before trial. However, limited access at trial is not the norm and most likely seriously needed.

[rockscan]

@Stillpaying: I can see that a conversation between us would be a waste of each of our respective time. Lets just say that there are a lot of factors that go into a court process. I played it correctly, and it took a few years and thousands of dollars. With regards to one of your questions, I am curious if you could please enlighten us on what happens when a father takes the kids....does it usually work in their favour? Curious on your thoughts on that scenario...

Custody and financial matters are their own separate beasts. I've had my disagreements with SP over the years but he is right when he says you need to take control of the process. Granted his case was pre covid without the back ups.

Rockscan: Its curious that you continue to make assumptions about others- such as alleging that Newerwavers is an old poster with a new name- but equally give NewWaver a hard time for doing the same. The irony of such double standards isn't lost on me, and perhaps its these contradictions that have contributed to the declining health and content of this forum.

I've been here for almost ten years and I've seen posters come and go. If you read closely you will pick up some ways of speaking, ways of referring to people and subtle clues in what they say. If that doesn't work, you can do some digging. NW is a former poster based on all the things I've looked into. And his assumption on SP was blatant. Not to mention he went right after SP in the title of this thread. If you are going to come for someone, do some research. It's also forum etiquette.

Speaking of decline, the assertion that the forum isn't going downhill isn't supported by the data. Viewership and post counts indicate that this forum has become a shell of what it once was. Maybe if you followed your own advice about doing the research, you too would see this.

I will agree that we have attracted some terrible contributors over the last year, many who have been banned, but my original assertion about the need still stands. Things have changed since I first came along and not many people may need this info. Plus a lot of former posters are still offline friends of mine who have gotten on with their busy lives now that they have their kids and a few others dm me as they don't want to post for their own reasons.

The issue isn't with this forum isn't just that its waning in activity, but also that its becoming an echo chamber for certain views. You mentioned that people dont need the forum anymore, could it be that people are leaving/abstaining from posting because they are tired of double standards and selective interpretation of experiences? I have read many previous threads from fathers who got grinded by an unnecessary adversarial system searching for answers, to (a) have it erroneously suggested they are bitter, (b) have their experiences minimized and told to get over it, and/or (c) have their stories twisted with falsehoods and assumptions, that they just leave saying this website is not worth it. The family court system is far from the magical utopia that Tayken and Stillpaying profess and paint it to be. Its disingenuous to imply that anyone who hasn't achieved 50/50 custody arrangement from the get-go is at fault, ignoring the complexities and the challenges posed by high-conflict individuals false accusations, financial limitations involved in separating, and a multitude of other factors.

I will counter that with the argument that the posts over the last few years have been mainly from bitter people looking for justification. Plus it's an anonymous forum, if you want someone to pat you on the back, get a life coach.

Your family might not have received any help from the court system, and you see it as improved over the last 30 years. Thats a valid personal perspective, but the plural of anecdote is not data. There are systemic issues that many here have faced that cannot simply be chalked up to "not doing enough". If this forum aims to be a genuinely helpful resource for people navigating the family court system, it needs to foster open, respectful, and constructive discussions from a variety of perspectives- not just those who claim to have conquered the system flawlessly. Thank you for engaging in this topic and thread, and I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

Again, go back and read old posts. People here give great advice on things and also perspective. This isn't a campfire where we are all going to hug at the end. I received my share of ribbing at the start and also great insight and advice.

[Challenger]

I am to disagree here big time, especially with StillPaying.
The process is broken, and here is example:
1. Ex takes children to undisclosed location and serves application. No domestic violence or anything reported or even mentioned in affidavit or application.
2. Husband files motion to return children via one of most expensive lawyers in Toronto (I.e. likely no mistakes on the process)
3. The motion isn’t even given a date. Instead case conference comes where judge orders OCL and orders 2 hours « visitation » which ex refuses.
4. OCL surprisingly is in dads favour. But they are late with their report for SC, it is rescheduled, and on next SC judge orders new OCL report as prior is now over a year old.
5. Three years later dad finally able to see kids and gets 50/50.

So you see, there is 50/50, happy end right? Actually no. Aside of hundreds of thousands in legal fees, children didn’t see father for huge part of their childhood. And no judge, no money could compensate them for it. Now them, some 30 years later would be posting on forum like this « how bad their mom was », just like one of the posters on this forum still has a trauma from divorce of her own parents decades ago.

I am sorry StillPaying, I don’t see how self represented would have a better chance than someone with pretty good lawyer. And this is only a custody chapter in that case, the finance part, photoshopping/tampering with exhibits by lawyer representing ex is even more frightening.

As for comment that forum goes downhill. He is actually right - check site own statistics - few years back there were 100+ online users, now it is hardly a few. And not to mention hero’s I often see personal attacks to one or another user, then user stops posting in this place and leaves.

[StillPaying]

Based on your agreement on how one should conduct themselves in court and life, I'm not surprised by your experience. The lies and misleading statements kill your credibility. Ex didn't say anything bad about you, and ocl had nothing bad, and you followed the process perfect... yet you spent 'hundreds of thousands' to get to sc, and still you only have an hour visit with kids. (Missed you on tmz)
Your dear in the headlights story is much more believable than blaming the system.

[Challenger]

Based on your agreement on how one should conduct themselves in court and life, I'm not surprised by your experience. The lies and misleading statements kill your credibility. Ex didn't say anything bad about you, and ocl had nothing bad, and you followed the process perfect... yet you spent 'hundreds of thousands' to get to sc, and still you only have an hour visit with kids. (Missed you on tmz)
Your dear in the headlights story is much more believable than blaming the system.

It is way more believable than your fairy tales about fair and quick and inexpensive courts. Why don’t you call yourself to trial coordinator during COVID years in suburbs of Toronto and ask for a next motion date - you will be told it is 9 months away, and then it will be rebooked because courts are closed on that date.

Sorry SP - this forum anonymous, but your posts are so out of reality that I think your case isn’t real either, regardless how many years you’ve been here, I even thought at some point it could be someone using more than one nick, kinda creating « « persona »

And your story about court brings back children from shelter is just total BS - every single friend I have who was divorcing (both males and females) there was a years long fight over children with women getting exclusive possession of children during court times I.e. for years.