Why are people so cheap when it comes to kids?

[arabian]

I read over and over how parents don't want to pay for kids in extra curricular activities (swimming, art, hockey, skiing). Instead they would prefer to nit-pick over the cost and in many cases have lawyers fight it out. Then these same people go on to have more children with other people. Disgusting.

[wretchedotis]

I've complained to my ex about the things she signed him up for.

There are two arguements I have for it.

1) I should be able to have some amount of right to refusal on costs. Just because I have to pay the higher proportion of said costs, does not mean that it should be such an easy thing for MOM to sign him up for everything and anything. If we were still together, we would sit down and decide what we can afford, and what we cannot when it comes to the 'extra-curriculars'. Note the 'extra' part of the word. Meaning its a luxury - not an entitlement.

2)My ex has a knack for only signing the boy up for activities that occur on my access days. Seems like she does it to get out of taking him herself, or to minimize his and mine alone time together. Take your pick.

[Coop]

I read over and over how parents don't want to pay for kids in extra curricular activities (swimming, art, hockey, skiing). Instead they would prefer to nit-pick over the cost and in many cases have lawyers fight it out. Then these same people go on to have more children with other people. Disgusting.

I have and continue to argue on expenses. I have to pay a mortgage and maintain a home and car for myself, and realistically I pay the ex's mortgage THEN some. She makes a decent salary and her husband makes over $100,000. Their household income including CS amounts to close to $200,000. So THEY may be able to agree to and afford $2,000 summer camps (especially since I pay the largest portion of it).

I never argued expenses worth a few hundred dollars, but the larger ones were definitely disputed. (Europe trips, drivers ed, summer camps, etc).

[NBDad]

Arabian, you seem extremely bitter. The simple fact of the matter is that a separation/divorce is one of THE most emotionally charged events that can occur.

Far too often one parent or another tries to "stick it" to the other person over some perceived on going butthurt.

The things you listed can run into THOUSANDS of dollars a year. That PLUS CS obligations PLUS possible spousal support obligations....well it can steamroll very very quickly, especially if one side is underemployed/on welfare/works/etc.

In my opinion, your statement:

Instead they would prefer to nit-pick over the cost and in many cases have lawyers fight it out. Then these same people go on to have more children with other people. Disgusting.

is only disgusting if they are nitpicking over CS. CS is the right of the child, and having ADDITIONAL children does not remove or reduce the obligation to your existing children.

For "extras", there should be open communication as well as sharing of costs. If one is not consulted, and simply handed a bill, then certainly they have a right to contest it. It's a power trip, and intended to minimize the other parent to that of a walking talking ATM. THAT is disgusting.

[Berner_Faith]

I read over and over how parents don't want to pay for kids in extra curricular activities (swimming, art, hockey, skiing). Instead they would prefer to nit-pick over the cost and in many cases have lawyers fight it out. Then these same people go on to have more children with other people. Disgusting.

I am not sure it is that they don't want to pay, but rather they were never consulted, there was never a discussion, they were just handed a bill. More often than not, it is the parent who's share is less that insists the kids are in all kinds of activities... like NBDad said... they often try to stick it to the other parent. If one is getting a significant amount of CS, most expenses should be covered under that amount, yet time and time again, the higher earning parent (in most cases) is being sucked dry.

Now before anyone blames me on being bitter, my bf makes less than his wife, and his share is far less than her's. However, they have been able to work out a deal that what she chooses to put the children in on her time, she is responsible for the costs, what we do on our time, we are responsible for. Currently the children are only in baseball and swimming with her and swimming and camps with us. The costs associated with this are minimal, and something both parents can reasonably afford, taking into account CS.

I know as the children grow and their activities become more costly, they may have to revert to the proportionate share, but currently that is not an issue. We don't expect her to pitch in for the activities we decide to sign the kids up for... that seems petty to me.

[hadenough]

For the record, Arabian does not have young kids (she has a son that is about 30, I believe) so she's not complaining about "her" child/ren being given the cheap other parent treatment. My ex wouldn't pick a camp or activity for S13 if his life depended on it. Asking him would be pointless, and yes he can afford to contribute/pay. Currently he's in arrears with FRO (they only recently got on board and there's been no 'enforcement' yet) and quite frankly, he does a act like a cheap S.O.B., for the sole purpose of sticking it to ME however he can.

While his 2 younger children with wife #2 wear baby/designer clothing and want for nothing - he puts every effort into seeing that i/we are barely getting by. I realize not everyone is so evil. As for bitter (and btw I'm glad to be rid of him) you're damn right I am and if FRO takes his license and whatever else, I personally will be pretty amused. He's never going to grow up. He will have no relationship soon with S13 and eventually he will reap what he's sown. All for the sole purpose to be difficult, and make my life as hard as he possibly can.

His new family is not entitled to more than what he extends S13. His wife will eventually see that all the high living will come crashing to an end b/c there will be more debts than assets by the time he's done with her. I feel sorry only for the kids. My son is growing up fast and not really into "camps" but there was one sport I had him in that we've had to take a break from (and he's ok w/that) b/c I cannot afford it. The one time I did ask ex to contribute he said "take it out of all that money you get every month from me." Okay, I suppose I could and then we could say give up groceries for awhile? :/ He's an ass and hopefully FRO will straighten him out soon. He seems to be getting the benefit of the doubt for now. Currently (he was sending a short-paid chq to me every month) he's not paying direct to FRO or me so now I'm in the big pinch. As for the more normal parents out there paying section 7 and CS, I agree that CP's should consult with the OP about all activities and associated costs.

[arabian]

Thank you hadenough, you are correct in that my son is now 31. I am fast getting used to being called bitter when I express my opinion on something. The "bitter" response is pretty lame.

I was fortunate to be brought up in a stable home with two parents who both loved me. They ensured that my siblings and I could experience many diverse activities. That is good parenting - they took the "I" out of the formula and put us first.

Yes it is difficult trying to pay down one's mortgage, put food on the table and coming up with school fees and music lessons. I never said it wasn't difficult. Making choices is difficult as well. For example, picking a less expensive auto or home to live in so kids can go to summer camp seems like a no-brainer to me. too often people use their children's extracurricular activities as fodder for fighting with their ex. Lawyers must love this and encourage it. I have to say that I was quite surprised when I would sit in court for my divorce issues and listen to the cases before me. I was absolutely stunned that two people would hire 300.00/hr lawyers to go to court to debate a 75.00/month fee for piano lessons. Just doesn't make sense to me.

[Nadia]

Yes, Arabian, you are correct it makes no sense to be paying a lawyer a fee of $300 per hour to fight over paying a $75 per month piano lesson.

However, people who fight over such matters are rarely cool tempered, rational thinking beings and are often hell bent on "winning" no matter what the issue is. Unfortunately, all it serves to do is escalate conflict between the parties, take away financial resources that could otherwise be spent on the children and waste an awful lot of court time.

[Janus]

I was absolutely stunned that two people would hire 300.00/hr lawyers to go to court to debate a 75.00/month fee for piano lessons. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Keep in mind that it takes two people to pull this off. It takes one person to resent paying the $75 so much that lawyers are a better alternative, and it takes one person with an enormous sense of entitlement to feel that it is important to pay lawyers to extract that $75.

The thing is, money given to the ex all goes into a general slush fund. Sure, the recipient can make claims about where the money is going, but at the end of the day, it is impossible to figure out if the money was used for the children or for the $70 haircut. So, while the fight may nominally be about that piano lessons, the truth is that it is always about the slush fund.

[hadenough]

Quote by Janus; "Keep in mind that it takes two people to pull this off. It takes one person to resent paying the $75 so much that lawyers are a better alternative, and it takes one person with an enormous sense of entitlement to feel that it is important to pay lawyers to extract that $75."

That is one way to look at it, yes. However, in my matter my ex is "both" of those persons, you describe above. He would steal the eyes out of his kid's heads if he needed them or decided he wanted them for himself. (The "eyes" )

Some individuals have no limits, no boundaries. What's mine is mine, and what's everybody else's is (potentially) mine too. That's the thought process.

[Janus]

That is one way to look at it, yes. However, in my matter my ex is "both" of those persons, you describe above. He would steal the eyes out of his kid's heads if he needed them or decided he wanted them for himself. (The "eyes" )

Perhaps, but to end up in court over piano lessons, both parties have to be so full of resentment that they have lost all reason.

Both.

So, sure, your ex is unreasonable, but if you are fighting him in court over petty amounts of money, then you are also unreasonable.

[hadenough]

There is nothing petty about any aspect of what I brought before the Courts. I would have been quite content to settle out of court. That was not to be. My son and I have been financially brutalized by my ex. I don't know how you feel about being ripped off five-ways to Sunday, but it doesnt/hasnt and won't ever sit well, with me. I'm hopeful that when I file a motion to change the current order that it will more accurately reflect what he should be paying in CS/SS and arrears repayment.

[arabian]

My original post was made after observing two lawyers (sans clients in courtroom) bickering back and forth about who was going to pay for the weekly piano lessons. The two lawyers were seasoned pros racking up their client's bills.

I realize that people should be reasonable when they enroll their kids in things and naturally consider the overall affordability for all parties. I just couldn't believe that there were these two $500.00/hr lawyers actually being paid to argue over something like that.

I have no personal experience in CS so I probably shot my mouth off before I thought. Didn't mean to offend anyone. Sorry if I did.

[ddol1]

OMG Hadenough! You met my Ex!! Oops her line was just a bit different, "what is hers is hers, what is mine is hers, and anything in the future? Just hand it over!" To the kids, well dad was forced to be the heavy all the time, but you have to live within your means, there is five people in the house and all deserve "attention" but in the end after never buying a new car, keeping it at least 10 years, house - never bought one that didn't need to be re-renoed top to bottom, heck the last one bought before the body gave out we bought a new house with drywall in it! took 3 years to finish that one. So it isn't about being cheap, or even frugal but just trying to do it all, drive the kids all over the world (felt like it as I was the only driver), for the majority.... proud to say that nearly every piece of furniture in the house was built by me - many people taken aback when told they were made with my own hands.

In the end, I made a point of spending time with our kids everyday, I was the main caregiver in their 0-7 yrs (that just came to light a few weeks ago....never thought about it that way) but still the ex wanted them to go to one more thing across town, or the fieldtrip for the week for a mere $2,000 or more and it just got to the point that with everything there is only so much --- our kids never had the best of anything but they had what they needed and a few cherished items here and there. Those years were happy ones....

[blairje2004]

I totally agree. For many years my fiance and I paid for competetive dance for his daughter. He was unemployed for 18 months and my wages barely covered our expenses..(basement apartment and 13 year old car). So on top of 786 per CS based on his pre unemployent wages and about $5000.00 things were really rough.

Now its university..The child was offered a place at a place close to home where they pay the students to not live in residence. She was accepted at that University but decided to attend 4 hours away in a city where her boyfriend goes to university.

While there was an RESP established and she has got a scholarship I have seen nothing of wages from part time job or an OSAP application to help defray the cost of higher tution, accomodations etc.

Her mother lives with her new boyfriend in a brand new house and drives a brand new car. We never see or here from the child unless she wants money. The latest was I need a lap top. I could have got one wholesale through business connections but the child went out and purchased the most expensive model she could find and now expects her dad to pay for half.

Just ranting so thanks for listening