Negotiating

[Wllmdarcy]

This whole process is so hard and my spouse and I get on fairly well and agree on everything except support. It is quite difficult as our lawyers seem to only be willing to provide us with best case scenarios and not really address what might be reasonable. In my situation my spouse has moved to a nearby town and if I move to join her my income will decrease by well over half. For a variety of reasons it is fairly certain that she cannot stop me from moving nor base ongoing support on my current salary. In either case my children and spouse will be well taken care of

The trouble is her lawyer has in her head that she is an idiot if she takes less than a certain amount. I have tried to explain that if I pay her that, given resent changes at work, she will likely get two or three times what I do. I can deal ok with just seeing my kids on weekends and I can deal ok with working 60-80 hrs a week to give my family extra but I can't deal with those things knowing I am doing it to give my spouse play money while I end up just getting by. She still trust me a fair bit but I can see when I try to explain that the seeds of doubt have been planted.

The truth is I will defiantly move to be nearer my kids if anything like the above situation occurs and, quite possiblely, no matter what happens with the settlement

I know it is difficult from her perspective as it sounds like I'm just threatening to move if I don't get what I want. But I would like to try to stay and provide us all with a few more luxuries. It's just how do you explain something like this in this environment

[Tayken]

This whole process is so hard and my spouse and I get on fairly well and agree on everything except support. It is quite difficult as our lawyers seem to only be willing to provide us with best case scenarios and not really address what might be reasonable. In my situation my spouse has moved to a nearby town and if I move to join her my income will decrease by well over half. For a variety of reasons it is fairly certain that she cannot stop me from moving nor base ongoing support on my current salary. In either case my children and spouse will be well taken care of

The trouble is her lawyer has in her head that she is an idiot if she takes less than a certain amount. I have tried to explain that if I pay her that, given resent changes at work, she will likely get two or three times what I do. I can deal ok with just seeing my kids on weekends and I can deal ok with working 60-80 hrs a week to give my family extra but I can't deal with those things knowing I am doing it to give my spouse play money while I end up just getting by. She still trust me a fair bit but I can see when I try to explain that the seeds of doubt have been planted.

The truth is I will defiantly move to be nearer my kids if anything like the above situation occurs and, quite possiblely, no matter what happens with the settlement

I know it is difficult from her perspective as it sounds like I'm just threatening to move if I don't get what I want. But I would like to try to stay and provide us all with a few more luxuries. It's just how do you explain something like this in this environment

1. Why did the children move to a new town? Did their jurisdiction change? Did you give consent?

2. What is the custodial arrangements currently? If they are not 60-40 or better they are defending their position on child support. If you move closer then the argument towards 60-40 or better comes to the table in a change of circumstance and the calculation of child support changes.

3. Is the other parent working?

Good Luck!
Tayken

[billm]

... I can deal ok with just seeing my kids on weekends and I can deal ok with working 60-80 hrs a week to give my family extra ...

Really? Have you been brainwashed - you're okay doing all (almost 2x what you should) the work, and don't get to raise or see your kids?

Crazy! IMHO

[HammerDad]

Really? Have you been brainwashed - you're okay doing all (almost 2x what you should) the work, and don't get to raise or see your kids?

Crazy! IMHO

Agreed.

You should be trying to maximize your involvement with your kids. They need you more then they need a pay cheque.

[WorkingDAD]

Why!? Why!? Why!? Why!? Why!? Why!?

I can deal ok with just seeing my kids on weekends

You wrote before that your income is 400k+ a year!! You can afford what probably nobody here can... Commom man how you can be OK with that?

Are you sure that they (kids) OK with that too?

At the end of the day it your call and you are the one to leave with that... But please at least make sure you thought it thru as you will not be able to say after posting on the forum that nobody told you so...


Just read please:

...
WHAT HAPPENS TO KIDS IN DIVORCE
A) “Ironically, one of the strongest determinants of a child’s healthy adjustment to divorce is the extent of the father’s continued participation as a parent. Children of divorce suffer socially, emotionally and intellectually when their fathers are not actively involved as parents. They appear to internalize responsibility for the father’s departure and suffer a precipitous loss of self esteem and initiative that is reflected in depression, poor school performance and failure in peer relationships. Adolescent girls offer an especially poignant example: when their fathers are not around they are more likely than a girl with an available father to become sexually promiscuous. They have sex at an earlier age with more partners and they are more likely to marry young, to find their own marriages unsatisfactory and eventually to divorce themselves.”

“Furthermore, boys at every age suffer more from divorce than do girls - in part because they usually live with their mothers and little time with their same sex parent. Divorce is also more problematic for boys because mothers tend to be more critical and anger toward their sons than their daughters, and when the father is absent mothers discipline daughters more effectively than sons. Research also suggest that when that when shared parenting arrangements are not working, boys adjust better in the custody of their father, girls better in their mother’s custody. The best adjusted children of divorce, however, have frequent access, without conflict, to both parents.”

B) “We symbolize this decline by labeling the contacts children have with their father after divorce, as visits. They live with their mother, they visit their father. What sort of contacts do we label as visits? When children go to school, we don't call it a visit, unless they happen to be visiting a teacher from the past, in a school they no longer attend. They practice with their soccer team, we don't call it a visit.
When they attend their dance class, we don't call it a visit. But, if they are
observing a class that is not their own, then we say they're just visiting. You all belong here. I'm just visiting. Visit is a term we use when we set a person apart in some fundamental way from others at the same location. A visitor is a guest in the home, and without thinking about it, every time we use this term to denote the time our children spend with their father, we're endorsing a destructive idea. We're telling the children that after the divorce, their association with their father must be transformed into something less than a normal parent-child relationship. So, rather than reassure children that they have not lost a parent as a result of the divorce, we give them the message that the father is devalued. He's no longer essential in their eyes. He's no longer a parent, in the same sense as he was before the divorce. When we restrict their contact with their father to every other weekend, then we remove the relationship from a natural daily interaction and we transplant it to the artificial turf of the weekends that are crowded with entertainment and gifts, for when his children become guests, it follows that the father must now be a host. He must entertain the guest, and, of course, this is what many divorced fathers do. In fact, so many fathers do it that the phrase, "Disneyland Dad," is commonly used to describe the altered relationship. Divorced fathers become recreational directors.

The research shows that homework and chores are no longer their concern. Conflict is minimized. Fun time is maximized. But, eventually, the visiting relationship wears thin. Everyone senses that something has been lost. The father-child relationship is no long as rich. It is no longer as comfortable. It is no longer as gratifying as before the divorce.

Two weeks worth of living do not compress easily into two days. And, this is one reason why so many divorced fathers who dearly love their children and work hard to support them during the marriage, gradually drift out of their lives.”

...

PS:
I was using binders what my company throw out to save money on that custody/access trial so I better buy toy for the kid...

[Wllmdarcy]

Wow! Amazing response, thanks so much. I have let been myself worry to much about being a good provider and how my decrease in income would affect the kids but I can already see some of those behaviors in my six year old and can feel how they start seeing it as a visit, how all that natural easy stuff in a father son relationship has to be rediscovered every time and could easily slip away without realizing it

Even if I move I will still provide for them well and I am lucky enough that I can essentially find good employment anywhere or perhaps I could work 3 days a week and live near them. It's so easy to look at all the wrong things when you are disagreeing about money. I really need to focus on what is REALLY best for my kids and let the other decisions follow from that. I guess I should really just be thankful that I have options and stop feeling sorry for myself

[shellshocked22]

Not trying to stir the pot but things to remember.....

-I appreciate you're trying to do the best for your kids. Just remember if you are not financially strong you won't be able to help your kids (yes I know money isn't everything but its still very important like it or not).

-keep in mind that "child support" is NOT accountable. In other words, your ex is SOLELY in charge in how its spent, even if you disagree. If she decides she needs a new Ferrari to drop off the kids, then that's her call.

-You're likely looking at a LOT of money over a LONG time. Think long and hard and ask for input from folks that have been there.

Don't be so "generous" now that you may regret it for many years in the future. You can always pay the kids/spouse MORE "voluntarily" down the road if you want. Once you agree to a formal settlement you will likely have very little discretion if things don't go as you planned. Think things through very carefully.

[Rioe]

Wow! Amazing response, thanks so much. I have let been myself worry to much about being a good provider and how my decrease in income would affect the kids but I can already see some of those behaviors in my six year old and can feel how they start seeing it as a visit, how all that natural easy stuff in a father son relationship has to be rediscovered every time and could easily slip away without realizing it

Even if I move I will still provide for them well and I am lucky enough that I can essentially find good employment anywhere or perhaps I could work 3 days a week and live near them. It's so easy to look at all the wrong things when you are disagreeing about money. I really need to focus on what is REALLY best for my kids and let the other decisions follow from that. I guess I should really just be thankful that I have options and stop feeling sorry for myself

So nice to see the moment when the light bulb turns on! Your focus in this separation should always be the best interests of the kids. They don't know the difference between living on $100k a year and $300k. They DO know the difference between seeing Dad every other weekend, and seeing him half their lives.

My suggestion would be, if the ex won't move back to your town, to move to their town, work those 3 days a week, and have 50-50 custody. Arrange the schedule so that they are with you on your days off, with the ex when you work, and alternate the weekends so you both get to do stuff with them.

Are you coparenting your children with your ex, or have you hired her to be a nanny while you work those 80 hour weeks and never see your children? One of them is the much better option.

[WorkingDAD]

So nice to see the moment when the light bulb turns on! Your focus in this separation should always be the best interests of the kids. They don't know the difference between living on $100k a year and $300k. They DO know the difference between seeing Dad every other weekend, and seeing him half their lives.

My suggestion would be, if the ex won't move back to your town, to move to their town, work those 3 days a week, and have 50-50 custody. Arrange the schedule so that they are with you on your days off, with the ex when you work, and alternate the weekends so you both get to do stuff with them.

Are you coparenting your children with your ex, or have you hired her to be a nanny while you work those 80 hour weeks and never see your children? One of them is the much better option.

Reading this two things came to me from past when I had difficult time (what I thought on that time - not even close to thous 2 years in Canadian family court) in my life and good advise I got from my ex wife.

You live to work when other people work to live.

and another thing what I do not remember where it come from to me

When you come to the end of your road you will not remember best day in office but you will remember best day with people who most important to you - your kids.

Just thought may get you thinking and help you make some priorities shifted at least little bit. Make me thinking back than - hope get you thinking too...

[Wllmdarcy]

Met with my lawyer today. His advice: forget the money move where your kids are and work 40 hrs a week or if you are feeling really generous first offer her the opportunity to move back. Don't discuss it just tell her that's what you are going to do. It is your right and an argument to base spousal support on your current income could not be supported