back to school costs - out of hand?

[alx]

3 kids, grades 12, 9 and 6.

She's "just getting started" and wants "half" of back to school costs. Currently she's just over $1000 - and like mentioned "just getting started".

Now, when I went "back to school", I got a pair of shoes, one or two shirts and a pair of jeans. Supplies "if needed" (generally pencil crayons, pencils & pens, binder or two and paper).

(Oh, she just got back from a trip to Los Angeles w the new bf -- I wondered why she needed an advance on her August C.S. $$$$).


Anyway, where does one draw the line? The kids can't possibly need tons of new clothes/shoes etc all "at once" -- assuming my monthly C.S. is being spent "wisely".

What do some of you folks do (or expect) when it comes down to "back to school" costs? FWIW, she makes about twice what I do.

Thanks for any thoughts on the matter!

Alex

[dinkyface]

You already pay your share of clothing and school supplies. Her bad if she doesn't budget for a big buy in August.

[billm]

School supplies and 'start of school clothing' are normal and covered by CS if you pay full CS.

You've already paid for those items. Don't pay twice!

[DunnMom]

Ditto to what previous posters said ... CS covers clothing (ie. back to school clothes/summer clothes) ... and also "back to school" supplies ...

Don't pay ... let HER file a motion and try taking you back to court .. and self-rep because this is a no-brainer

[momof6]

Does your agreement specify that you will pay half of these expenses over and above child support? If not, I would suggest that you give each child a gift, though you are not obligated. Your ex would probably appreciate it if you offered to take the kids shoe shopping..

Every family does this differently but personally, I buy each child one pair of shoes for outdoors and one for phys.ed (if needed). They each get a couple of pairs of pants, shirts, new socks and undies. Depends on how good of shape the back pack is in...ditto with the lunch kit. School supplies add up!!

This does not include registration, activity fees, etc...

I have two kids left at home (was 4) and will probably spend $800. They like American Eagle, Hollister, and Calvin Klein... so we find shopping in the US cheaper. My son is a size 15 shoe and requires orthotics, so his expenses really add up. By no means do they get everthing all at once and depending on the weather, often most fall/winter clothes can be bought later.

$1000 total does not seem inappropriate for three kids, considering.

[alx]

I appreciate the info you folks have provided!

Any references that I can give to her though? She keeps claiming that "her lawyer" is telling her it's over and above normal C.S. Is there any legal references or even case law available?


@momof6 - just to clarify her spending of just over $1000 - that is "just getting started" -- she has yet to buy shoes, shirts, pants & supplies. (no idea what she's already spent the $$$$ on -- I'm guessing it has more to do with her trip than back to school stuff).

[fireweb13]

My ex tried this, it was our daughters first year in school and my access was just increased to include 2 school days. I spent $300 on clothing for her but it included winter clothing and all that stuff as well. Then my ex tried to guilt trip me into giving her more money for back to school shopping and I told her to give me a list of what she needs, and then we can divide what each of us was going to get her. She said no because she wanted to do all the shopping. End of story.
If you want to help out for your kids, I would do like what Momof6 said and take them out to buy shoes or something if you like. Really though, $1000 is just getting started, wow we used to get $100 for each of us when I was a kid for back to school and this lasted us until I was 15.

[HammerDad]

Here is the law on s7 expenses:

Special or extraordinary expenses
7. (1) In an order for the support of a child, the court may, on the request of either parent or spouse or of an applicant under section 33 of the Act, provide for an amount to cover all or any portion of the following expenses, which expenses may be estimated, taking into account the necessity of the expense in relation to the child’s best interests and the reasonableness of the expense in relation to the means of the parents or spouses and those of the child and to the spending pattern of the parents or spouses in respect of the child during cohabitation:
(a) child care expenses incurred as a result of the custodial parent’s employment, illness, disability or education or training for employment;
(b) that portion of the medical and dental insurance premiums attributable to the child;
(c) health-related expenses that exceed insurance reimbursement by at least $100 annually, including orthodontic treatment, professional counselling provided by a psychologist, social worker, psychiatrist or any other person, physiotherapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy, prescription drugs, hearing aids, glasses and contact lenses;
(d) extraordinary expenses for primary or secondary school education or for any other educational programs that meet the child’s particular needs;
(e) expenses for post-secondary education; and
(f) extraordinary expenses for extracurricular activities. O. Reg. 391/97, s. 7 (1); O. Reg. 446/01, s. 2.
Definition, “extraordinary expenses”
(1.1) For the purposes of clauses (1) (d) and (f),
“extraordinary expenses” means
(a) expenses that exceed those that the parent or spouse requesting an amount for the extraordinary expenses can reasonably cover, taking into account that parent’s or spouse’s income and the amount that the parent or spouse would receive under the applicable table or, where the court has determined that the table amount is inappropriate, the amount that the court has otherwise determined is appropriate, or
(b) where clause (a) is not applicable, expenses that the court considers are extraordinary taking into account,
(i) the amount of the expense in relation to the income of the parent or spouse requesting the amount, including the amount that the parent or spouse would receive under the applicable table or, where the court has determined that the table amount is inappropriate, the amount that the court has otherwise determined is appropriate,
(ii) the nature and number of the educational programs and extracurricular activities,
(iii) any special needs and talents of the child,
(iv) the overall cost of the programs and activities, and
(v) any other similar factors that the court considers relevant. O. Reg. 102/06, s. 1.

Unless there is a specific need to spend such amounts for the children due to special needs of the children or the course, the costs of clothing and related school supplies would generally be covered under child support.

Just because she has decided to spend an extraordinary sum, doesn't mean the it has become and extraordinary expense.

[billm]

I appreciate the info you folks have provided!

Any references that I can give to her though? She keeps claiming that "her lawyer" is telling her it's over and above normal C.S. Is there any legal references or even case law available?


@momof6 - just to clarify her spending of just over $1000 - that is "just getting started" -- she has yet to buy shoes, shirts, pants & supplies. (no idea what she's already spent the $$$$ on -- I'm guessing it has more to do with her trip than back to school stuff).

She wants money from you. Let her get the references. Who cares what her lawyer said - that is such BS - she has to prove it. EVERYONE here has said it is covered by CS, period. "My lawyer said" always makes me laugh.

Let her join this forum and learn for herself.

[formyGirls]

Do the math for her. Explain how $1000 spent in a "bulk purchase" of clothing and supplies only averages out to $83 a month. Explain how it is her choice to purchase such a large quantity of items at once, and that how she chooses to manage her personal cash flow situation is really none of your business, and you would rather keep out of it.

Then do what you say, and keep out of it. Hopefully she will see it for the reality of what it is (a choice to "bulk purchase").

[MiViLaLoco]

Hmmmm...since we have 50/50 it never once occurred to me or my ex that we wouldn't "share" the back to school supply costs. However, we stick to what is exactly on the list...it includes 1 pair of shoes...we include a new backpack...and it does not include clothes. We also take turns on who purchases the supplies each year. The purchaser supplies the other with the list and corresponding receipts for reimbursement. We find this works for us.

Now...I know for sure if either of us even considered including haircuts, clothing, or anything "extra" from the list...well...it would just mean needless fighting.

So, how about asking her for the school supply lists...or better yet, contacting the school(s) and having them email you the lists. The lists may also be available online via the school website...if they have one. Then ask her for the corresponding receipts for reimbursement.

Haircuts, clothes and other "stuff" not on the list would then be assumed to be at her discretion. After all, gone are the days when kids only get 1 new pair of runners at the beginning of the year, or new clothes only at the start of the school year, birthdays and Christmas.

You'll be meeting her half-way...and...like another poster stated...let her try to take you to court for the other expenses...and self-represent. Is really a no-brainer.

[first timer]

Our Separation Agreement outlines that we split our kids school fees 50/50. It also includes a clause regarding seasonal clothing - as long as I am included in the process of buying our kids clothes (ie: both parents and children go shopping together) then I am responsible for half the costs. This scenario as of yet has not occurred. Instead she buys them their winter coats/snow pants and boots and, for the past 3 years, half-way through the winter I purchased a second pair of snow pants for the youngest (first pair worn out) and a second coat for the oldest since the first one was not warm enough. I do not discuss anything with my ex nor do I ask for half of the costs. I simply see what they need when they are with me and I provide it. Getting back to school costs, I provide their basic school supplies based on the standard lists received from their schools. She gets them their indoor shoes. If our kids happen to need clothes and/or shoes since they are both growing like weeds, off we go to Value Village. I don't rely on the other parent to provide for their clothing/shoe needs when they are with me. I pretty much get them to try on everything in their closets on average 2-3 times a year and see what fits and what don't.

[NBDad]

a GRAND???? for THREE KIDS.....

Oh My.

I'll tell you now, I have SEVEN entering school this year, and I think we spent approx. 200-300 on the supplies. That's with extensive lists from the school on what they need. All the back to school sales are on, so you should be able to get everything on the cheap.

We'll spend maybe another 200-300 getting them all a nice back to school outfit or two, but we won't come close to 1000.

Ask for receipts so you can see what she's bought. Then go to the school and ask for the school supply list.

[alx]

Just an update for anyone interested:

1) She's over $1900 on "back to school" costs now. I told her to stop spending and let the kids go shopping with me for back to school supplies. She gave some attitude and said, "oh sure... you want to jump in and help... now." (meaning there is very little left to buy).

2) The bulk of her purchasing now seems to be clothing. I advised her that my CS payments are to cover clothing, among other things. Again, attitude in reply telling me that "her lawyer knows more than mine", and she's entitled to get back half of what ever she spends on back to school - even if it's clothing. (she's been like this on prior things too - whatever she spends $$ on - she feels she should get half from me - despite me not having input on the situation - she spends first, demands $ after).

3) She won't let the kids come shopping with dad - "it's too late now, I'm getting them what they need, you better get a lawyer" she said. It's hard enough to get to see the kids as it is - she moved them 3 hours away (despite the separation agreement saying it had to be agreeable to and in writing by me - which it wasn't - I just didn't fight about it) and I'm without the funds to buy a car (she got that).

4) Anyway, the part of "educating her" on the fact my CS $$ covers clothing costs too, seems to have really fired her up. She's threatening court and telling me I'll have to find a way to get there, cover her costs for her lawyer and her taking time off work/day care/etc. Wow... what a psycho greedy bi#ch. She flat out told me she's after more $$ - I'm not working "hard enough" for her apparently, so she's going to try and have an $80-100+k/year salary 'imputed' on me. I have a modest $45k/year income currently - for personal "quality of life" reasons right now (no energy or desire to work 70 hour weeks).

I don't think the headaches will be over for some time, lol. Any continued advice for dealing with these types? She'll always "know more" or have a lawyer that is better than mine, etc. She has a temper and I can see her going nuts (yelling/interrupting) in court.

[NBDad]

RADIO.....SILENCE.....Don't engage with her, don't argue with her. You've stated your opinion that CS covers this expense. To the best of my knowledge the law backs you on this. If she wishes to pursue it, let her bring you to court.

(You should have fought the move when it happened, chances are you could have made a strong case for a custody change at that time.)

You pay full CS, that covers clothing, back to school supplies, etc.

Now, if I were you, in order to cover my butt, I would put together a list of the back to school supplies that the kids require (their school should have the lists OR the local stores carry them sometimes).

Figure out what the approx. cost would be for supplies, save the store flyers showing the sale price available at that time, total it up and let her try to bring you to court.

Factor in the cost of two books bags, two lunch kits, one pair on indoor and one pair of outdoor shoes. Maybe ONE new outfit each.

If you have one, a cheap PC scanner works WONDERS for retaining this kind of information. Scan the flyers,and the school lists to a file and then email the files to yourself. (ie. setup a gmail account just for this kind of stuff)

That way if she TRIES to sick the lawyer on you, or drag you to court, you simply respond by reiterating that your understanding of the law is that your CS payments cover day to day necessities such as clothing and back to school supplies, that the total cost should have been X as per the school supply lists and attached flyers from the time frame in question. If they drag you to court, you request it be dismissed due to it being frivolous and unnecessary litigation and request costs.