Ex gave me an invoice for special expenses...

[Stubbs]

This has probably been asked already, but I'll ask it again:

I pay my ex almost a thousand dollars a month in CS. That's almost half of what I make a month, so there isn't a lot left over to even pay my most basic bills.

My ex went on a shopping spree before school and bought my children hundreds of dollars in new clothes without consulting me on her budget.

She has sent me an invoice for 75% of the total (she only works part-time so I have to foot the majority).

These were extravagant clothes and multiple pairs of shoes that my children realistically don't need. My ex demands the best and doesn't shop at reasonably-priced stores.

I had no input or say into what money was spent, even though I have joint custody. While I would have had no problem paying my share for some reasonable purchases, I feel that these clothes don't qualify as special expenses.

Unlike many other people here, I am broke. So I don't need the 'be a man and support your kids' line. I pay $11,000 a year. Shouldn't it be my ex's responsibility to manage these funds properly if she feels like a shopping spree?

Is there some sort of guideline online about how special expenses are determined?

Any help would be appreciated. If I have to pay this, then I can't even pay my rent this month.

[representingself]

Hey Stubbs....

You pay a hefty amount of child support, so no one is going to get on your case about not supporting your children.

Section 7 expenses are supposed to be for "special and/or extraordinary expenses"... which does include expenses for educational needs.

That being said, those "needs" are for things like tutors, learning aids, post secondary costs....

NOT for your ex to take the kiddies on extravagant shopping sprees at Abercrombie and Fitch...

Special expenses are shared between each household proportionate to the household income.

But the expenses have to match the families standard of living.

You wouldn't send a child from a middle income earning family, to boarding school is France ...right!!

So here is my advice...

I believe that a "reasonable" amount for a child's "back to school" shopping would be approximately $200:

Including: supplies ($30), new backpack ($15), 2 pairs of decent running shoes... New Balance, Nike or Sketchers, ($120), and a new outfit.

So IF you can afford to contribute to something like that...then that's fantastic.

If you can't, I really don't think you are legally obligated to anyways.

Back to school shopping is not considered "special" or "extraordinary", and the childrens' clothing needs should be covered within your CS payments.

AND, you are NOT a BAD GUY if you simply can't afford to pay for these things.

There are TONS of families that shop at Walmart for our children everyday, and the kids get by just fine!!!!!

[representingself]

Is there some sort of guideline online about how special expenses are determined?

Any help would be appreciated. If I have to pay this, then I can't even pay my rent this month.

Ohh yeah, there aren't really any clear guidelines about what is and is not considered a "special expense", and the Judges seem to give a lot of credit to the lifestyle afforded by the family prior to the relationship ending.

If you tell your wife that you do not consider these special expenses and do not pay them, SHE would have to file a court application to try and force you $$$$$. NOT LIKELY!

Go ahead and pay her the usual amount of Child Support, and like I said... IF you can afford it, toss her a couple of extra dollars.

If the difference is you not being able to pay your rent payment... then clearly this is NOT something you can afford, and you need to keep a roof over your head!!!!!

[frustrated11]

clothing,shoes, back to school supplies are factored in to the table amounts for CS. Since she spent above and beyond what is reasonable she is the one who has to pay out of pocket as it was i ncluded in the $1000 you give her already

[got2bkid]

Back to school supplies are NOT extra-ordinary expenses. The guidelines are very clear, extra-ordinary expenses above and beyond everyday expected expenses, of which going back to school is not. It happens every year and the CP has to plan and budget accordingly.

And, the extra-ordinary expense has to be shown to be in the best interest of the child AND in-line with the MEANS of BOTH parents.

If, for example, the child was very musically gifted, and wanted /needed to go to a private school to pursue music from an early age, the school fees would be termed "extra-ordinary". A judge could look at this and say "yes, good for the kid and both parents can pay, so split the fees" If one parent was un-employed, perhaps the judge would rule that it was above the means of both parents and deny it etc. etc.

There is a sliding of everyday expenses to be called "extra-ordinary" nowadays which HAS to stop! Even weekly classes like piano or gymnastics are NOT extra-ordinary. Now, if the child needs to go to Europe for a gymnastics competition, THAT would be extra-ordinary.

Payors need to know they do have some (however few) rights and can say NO to things that are not really all that "extra-ordinary"!

[Stubbs]

This is good to hear. I've been trying to find some clear legal wording about regular expenses vs. special expenses, and I keep coming up empty.

I know it's been beaten to death, but I just can't believe how the CS system works. I work for the government, so on paper I make good money. But after deductions I'm down to about $32,000 a year. So if you take my $2600 a month, and subtract $930 for CS for two kids, plus $820 for my rent, plus another $300 towards the $10,000 in debt she left me, that only leaves less than $500 a month to cover every single cost of living I have.

And I'm also responsible for 75% of daycare expenses. if she didn't get the subsidy then I'd be paying about $800 a month.

And then we're into negative numbers.

And people wonder why divorced Fathers fall into depression or commit suicide.

[SRivers]

Have you discussed this with her at all? Just tell her you can't afford to live and if she does not cease being unreasonable you will take her back to court.

Why isn't she working full time, being a single mum? It's time she stepped up, unless you have a child with special needs at home?

I am a single Mum, who has received a total of $300 from my ex in 3 years. I have found a way to keep a roof over our heads and put food on the table. You would be a saint in my eyes. $1000 per month is a tremendous amount to pay. Just my 10 cents.

[got2bkid]

"And people wonder why divorced Fathers fall into depression or commit suicide"

It's very unfair for payors who faithfully FOLLOW THE GUIDELINES. We hear alot about the CP's who don't get paid enough or regularly, yet very little about how, when the guidelines are followed to the T, the payors are left with almost nothing to live on to support themselves and their children when they are with them.

Suicide rates for men are 3X that of women in Canada, and the numbers rise for ages 40 to 60. I have wondered in the past if some of these are men who have had their kids taken away and are lost in a hopeless cycle of poverty which nobody acknowledges or helps with (cause as you say, it looks like you make ok money on paper). The GUIDELINE tables leave middle income payors poor. Very sad what they've done.

And then there are women like SRivers that step up and just do it with NO support. Very wacky system.

[SRivers]

Are you ok? Not the best place to ask, but if not talk to someone. I know it's hard. You could go back to court and ask for a reduction in costs and show just how much you are living off each month. A judge would order your ex to get full time work to balance the costs. It's only fair and right.

[Stargate]

This has probably been asked already, but I'll ask it again:

I pay my ex almost a thousand dollars a month in CS. That's almost half of what I make a month, so there isn't a lot left over to even pay my most basic bills.

My ex went on a shopping spree before school and bought my children hundreds of dollars in new clothes without consulting me on her budget.

She has sent me an invoice for 75% of the total (she only works part-time so I have to foot the majority).

These were extravagant clothes and multiple pairs of shoes that my children realistically don't need. My ex demands the best and doesn't shop at reasonably-priced stores.

I had no input or say into what money was spent, even though I have joint custody. While I would have had no problem paying my share for some reasonable purchases, I feel that these clothes don't qualify as special expenses.

Unlike many other people here, I am broke. So I don't need the 'be a man and support your kids' line. I pay $11,000 a year. Shouldn't it be my ex's responsibility to manage these funds properly if she feels like a shopping spree?

Is there some sort of guideline online about how special expenses are determined?

Any help would be appreciated. If I have to pay this, then I can't even pay my rent this month.

The CS you pay your ex is all you need to pay - not a penny more. All other costs such as those you described above need to come from the CS directly.

Don't let your ex get you flustered. SHE incurred the costs - she needs to cover them - NOT you. Plain and simple.

[Stubbs]

Have you discussed this with her at all? Just tell her you can't afford to live and if she does not cease being unreasonable you will take her back to court.

Why isn't she working full time, being a single mum? It's time she stepped up, unless you have a child with special needs at home?

I am a single Mum, who has received a total of $300 from my ex in 3 years. I have found a way to keep a roof over our heads and put food on the table. You would be a saint in my eyes. $1000 per month is a tremendous amount to pay. Just my 10 cents.

Yes, I discussed this with her. And her response was to restrict how often I can see my children to the barest minimum of every other weekend. Recently, I had been seeing my daughters an extra 2 days or so within the 2-week cycle. Not much, but I'll take whatever I can get.

Unfortunately, she has the ability (and technically the right) to use my children as currency. If she gets annoyed or doesn't get her way, then she tells me I'm cut off from seeing them outside of my designated weekends.

Taking her to court would be pointless for me. Her and the guy she cheated on me with seem to have an endless supply of discretionary income, and this guy's brother is a local MPP as well. I simply cannot afford a lawyer, and I don't qualify for legal aid because of the money I make before deductions.

And no, she doesn't work full-time. She only works 3 days a week, and chooses not to work any more than that. That way, she gets a full daycare subsidy. And yes, she keeps my daughters in the after-school program until about 5:00 even if she's not working.

You also asked if I'm okay... Well, yes and no. The system is overwhelmingly unfair and the only way I could possibly change anything with our agreement will end up bankrupting me with legal fees.

I used to own a $300,000 house. Now I rent a dingy apartment.

My ex just bought a brand-new car. My car is from 1995 and desperately needs to be replaced.

My ex goes on shopping sprees every week. I can barely afford the rotted produce at the local discount grocery store.

Ugh. The list goes on.

And the kicker? I told my ex that I might have to get an overnight job to supplement my income and help with the bills. She told me that I'm just trying to get out of my weekends with my daughters, and come tax time if I made any more than I did last year, she's having my CS raised according to the tables.

There is simply no winning. There isn't even gracious losing.

[SRivers]

OK. You can go to court on your own. You need to decide what you want to do and get the correct papers and serve her. If you want to reduce the amount you are paying because it's causing "Undue hardship" then do that, if you want to increase the amount of time you spend with your girls ask for that also. I did it on my own. A judge would listen to you, it's not in your daughters best interest to have a financially crippled Daddy. Which province do you live in?

Alberta has all the forms on their web site. When you file new papers ask to see a counsellor who will listen to you and help you. You'll get a court date. Make sure you are documenting everything factually so you can attach to your court papers. emails, invoices, changing times with your girls. etc. It's stressful but worth it.

[In_This_Together]

Sounds like your ex is a bully. My experience with bullies is that it's best to stand up to them. She is counting on you not responding because she knows you don't have the money. Take SRivers advice and do it yourself if you must. Your ex will likely be floored when she gets served. I have some experience with this with my husbands ex. She does exactly what you've described. Keeping the kids from him every time she doesn't get her way and he always gives in because he hates lawyers and doesn't want to go to court. He's recently decided he's fed up and has invited her to take her complaints in front of a judge. First she stalled, then she changed her mind as to what she wanted, then she extende the deadline for him to meet her demands (among which were paying for her petty out of pocket expenses). Will be interesting to see what happens. You're already being a man and taking care of your kids. Now extent that to exercising your right not to be a doormat.

[representingself]

I'd claim undue hardship.

If you do, the courts want the entire financial picture, your income, hers, her new spouse, your new spouse...etc.

IF there is a huge discrepancy in the standard of living in the two households, you could quite possibly win a reduction in child support, sec 7 contributions etc.

You can file a motion to vary by yourself. Attach an affidavit explaining your reasons, and file/serve. Wont cost you a dime.

She is already bleeding you dry, whats the worst that could happen??

[Stubbs]

Thanks everybody,

It looks like I'm going to have to do some hard thinking about what actions to take.

My ex is definitely a bully, and she always was during our marriage. I'll have to tread carefully, because my ex is an expert manipulator and her boyfriend has a wealth of political connections.

I may need to bluff a hand I don't have just a little bit and gauge her response before proceeding with any expensive and risky legal maneuvers.