Spousal Support Questions

[Rundgren]

Hi all, I want to preface this by saying how amazing this forum has been in terms of educating myself on various issues.

I do have a question regarding spousal support;

Quick facts about my situation:

• Separated in late May 2023, currently in mediation
• Cohabitated in September 2006/Married in October 2010
• 3 young children (11/9/7) with 50/50 custody
• Ages: Me-46/Her-42
• 2023 income: Me - $188,500/Her - $131,000

Numbers from Mysupportcalculator.ca:
Child Support – net payments from me to her for $850/month
Spousal Support (low/med/high) - $0/$0/$400 for 8.25 to 18 years

For the entirety of our relationship, we have kept nearly all finances separate. We had one joint account where we would each transfer funds to cover a joint cost like mortgage payments/utilities but that’s basically it.

She has worked at the same company our entire relationship but did take off a year for maternity leave for each child with the exception of the first where she went back to work a bit early and I took 10 weeks paternity leave. We never moved for my job, she never paid for additional education/training for me and made more money than me up until maybe 2 or 3 years ago.

She has asked for maximum spousal support so I made a without prejudice lump sum offer of $10,000 to waive which she initially countered at $60,000 before coming down to $20,000. There was infidelity on her part so even offering the $10,000 payment was painful for me, but did so just to not have to worry about having to deal with this down the line.

I’m wondering if anyone sees any likelihood of entitlement? I don’t think so, and neither does my lawyer but he is only getting my side of the story. I’ve asked multiple times for her reason she feels entitled so I can bring to my lawyer to come up with a fair offer (if any), but she refuses.

I’m also wondering if she does take me to court after the separation agreement is signed and manages to get a judgment for less than the $10,000 offer I made if I could ask for her to pay for my costs?

Thanks everyone. Let me know if you need further details to help give me a more informed answer.

[rockscan]

For the entirety of our relationship, we have kept nearly all finances separate. We had one joint account where we would each transfer funds to cover a joint cost like mortgage payments/utilities but that’s basically it.

I believe that even if you kept accounts separate, any assets and liabilities during the marriage are calculated. Unless she got an inheritance, everything is on the table.

She has asked for maximum spousal support so I made a without prejudice lump sum offer of $10,000 to waive which she initially countered at $60,000 before coming down to $20,000. There was infidelity on her part so even offering the $10,000 payment was painful for me, but did so just to not have to worry about having to deal with this down the line.

Canada has no fault divorce so her infidelity means nothing except it hurts you. Let it go. Make an offer of $10,000 and go from there. She obviously knows she is not entitled which is why she went from 60 to 20. She can ask for whatever she wants. The onus is on her to prove entitlement and if your lawyer doesn't believe she is entitled, she more than likely isn't.

I’m wondering if anyone sees any likelihood of entitlement? I don’t think so, and neither does my lawyer but he is only getting my side of the story. I’ve asked multiple times for her reason she feels entitled so I can bring to my lawyer to come up with a fair offer (if any), but she refuses.

Wait her out. She would have to argue it to a judge and her lawyer should have put it forward. She may be waiting you out to see how eager you are to settle.

I’m also wondering if she does take me to court after the separation agreement is signed and manages to get a judgment for less than the $10,000 offer I made if I could ask for her to pay for my costs?

I don't believe you have an agreement if she doesn't agree to all terms. She can't take you back to court if you haven't settled on a final agreement. She would have to take you to court to reach that decision. And if she gets less than what you offered, you can request costs but it isn't guaranteed.

This is a “roll the dice” situation. Are you looking at an additional $10,000 in legal fees you won't get back to fight it or are you ok with taking that chance. If your lawyer thinks she isn't entitled to anything and is confident they can win in court, don't pay it. If you are looking at losing $20,000 in legal fees, pay it. Leave your feelings about why the marriage broke down aside and move forward with an attitude of this is a business deal. You still have to save for school expenses.

[Tayken]

At those incomes there should be 0$ in SS and 0$ in CS. Depending on the judge if you appeared they would just yell at you both for wasting family resources. 99.99999% of families in court at any level of motion or trial do not have nearly that family income. Sort it out and go to arbitration. Hire a good lawyer you have the funds to do so.

[Rundgren]

Thanks for the responses.

I am aware how fortunate we are in terms of annual income. My first job out of university paid $20,000/year so I know what it’s like to struggle financially.

My lump sum offer for her to waive was mostly for peace of mind that I wouldn’t have to go to court in the future. Not sure why I would be yelled out when I made a good faith offer to avoid that scenario in the first place? Again, she never provided me her reasons she believes she’s entitled so I could work with my lawyer to come up with a realistic monthly payment offer.

And unless I’m missing something, why would you mention that there should be no child support? Regardless of income, as long as there is a discrepancy between the income of the ex-spouses a net payment would have to be made each month, no?

[rockscan]

Tayken gets frustrated with high income earners asking questions when they can afford counsel. He wasn't shouting you down, he was pointing out you can pay a lawyer to tell you this. There's nothing wrong with asking questions.

You would owe child support.

You don't need to ask your ex for reasons why she thinks she is entitled. Send the offer, try mediation. If that doesn't work, file with the court to end things. Her paperwork will outline her reasons for entitlement. At your first conference you should be advised on how this would be ruled on. After that you can amend your offer.

Don't bug your lawyer until you receive a response from her. Give her a timeline and file if she refuses to respond. Wasting money on back and forth correspondence is useless.

[StillPaying]

My lump sum offer for her to waive was mostly for peace of mind that I wouldn’t have to go to court in the future. Not sure why I would be yelled out when I made a good faith offer to avoid that scenario in the first place? Again, she never provided me her reasons she believes she’s entitled so I could work with my lawyer to come up with a realistic monthly payment offer.

And unless I’m missing something, why would you mention that there should be no child support? Regardless of income, as long as there is a discrepancy between the income of the ex-spouses a net payment would have to be made each month, no?

Court would ultimately resolve your issues but you both would definitely be yelled at. Court is usually for people in need. With both parties being high income earners, there's no need for any support to be paid. You both can easily afford to live your own lives while raising kids 50/50. This should be done on agreement or through arbitration; privately without the need of free government services.

Spousal should not be owed, but you never know with 3 maternity leaves. Listen to your lawyer. $10k is not bad to avoid court, but even with that agreement your ex could still come back for more so it's still a risk. Go to mediation/arbitration to get your final order. Let ex file with court if they want.