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Spousal income vs Child Support

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  • Spousal income vs Child Support

    Quick background. I have most parenting time with the ex EOW. OCL sided in my favour and looks like they wont be challenging it.

    My ex verbally told me yesterday he will start to pay support this week, and we got the papers today to consent to amending pleadings for spousal from me to him.

    I'm tired and bleeding money. I think my ex is out of money. Which is why I'm surprised he's filing today. I've asked for us to talk today as I'm trying to see if we can come to an agreement before we spend another year or more at this.

    My question, if I pay him spousal, that's taxable income for him, this I know. But does that be included to calculate child support back to me? Like if his income goes from 50000 to 60000 cause of the spousal payment, is child support based on the 60000? I'm just trying to get the facts before I plead my case and try to get us to get this done.

  • #2
    From what I can tell spousal support is deducted from income and this is a surprise to me.
    ....lawyers simply say "go with line 150" and people here say the same thing.
    Did I get this right and everyone else get this wrong? What do I pay a lawyer for?



    https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/...2.html#docCont
    Section 16: refer to Schedule III


    Schedule III: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/...html#h-1004938

    Look for this section.
    Spousal support and universal child care benefit

    3 To calculate income for the purpose of determining an amount under an applicable table, deduct

    (a) the spousal support received from the other spouse; and

    (b) any universal child care benefit that is included to determine the spouse’s total income in the T1 General form issued by the Canada Revenue Agency.

    Comment


    • #3
      Do your own calculations on the following site:

      https://www.mysupportcalculator.ca/#SupportCalculator

      Basically, you each take line 15000 (no longer line 150) from your NOA or Income statement and you add this as your income for SS and CS calculations under the payor and the recipient. Then you add the children, date of birth, date of marriage, date of separation, etc....

      The system will identify the amount to be paid as CS fixe and a range (within a fork) for spousal support. This amount must be established on consent between the parties otherwise, argue at court.

      Note the following on SS.

      SS is taxable meaning that it will be part of the income but only next year. For the first year, it won't be showing on it's line 15000 as it is newly ordered. But when filing the income statement with RCA, the recipient will need to declare the SS portion and only then it will be included in it's line 15000 and after.

      CS is not taxe deductable and therefore has no impact on line 15000.

      Keep it simple... take line 15000 and move on.

      Comment


      • #4
        Oh and by the way. I'm an accountant and we asked that question every years when it comes to filing our income tax reports.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by mafia007 View Post
          Oh and by the way. I'm an accountant and we asked that question every years when it comes to filing our income tax reports.
          If you are an accountant why do you accept Divorcemate for your calculations? I can see why the layperson would just go with the flow, but to calculate the proper amount isn't that difficult using Excel.

          Plus some people will have significant adjustments to their Line 15000 income for the purpose of child/spousal support calculations (carrying costs come to mind).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DHTO View Post
            If you are an accountant why do you accept Divorcemate for your calculations? I can see why the layperson would just go with the flow, but to calculate the proper amount isn't that difficult using Excel.

            Plus some people will have significant adjustments to their Line 15000 income for the purpose of child/spousal support calculations (carrying costs come to mind).
            I do not accept Divorcemate, the whole community of justice accept it! (judge, lawyers, paralegal, juridic assistance, law firms, etc...) Yes you can use Excel to calculate your share but they will use DivorceMate to confirm the amount anyway.

            As an accountant, when i work on income statements I worry only for all the amounts that will lead to line 15000 which includes revenues less the deductions. This is what we will communicate to RCA.

            If you feel that line 15000 is not the appropriate amount to use according to your situation, then you can argue and propose your own figures based on your findings. Be prepare as those will certainely be challenged by the opposing party and only in rare and specific circumstances (like self-employed) the judge will diverge from the actual amount file with RCA. Do the maths to establish if it's worth the effort and money to argue in court.

            For those who should be paying less than the table amount like a parent having to travel long distance to exercice his parenting time, the amount will be ajusted only after the first set of calculation are made and conceeded.

            Comment


            • #7
              I am reading this....take line 150.
              Yet, I posted an exception to this earlier where SS is not counted.
              Am I wrong here?

              Comment


              • #8
                Line 150 is the starting point. If you have a simple tax return it's fine, however if you have investment income or self employed, you may have additional deductions/additions. Divorsemate has the same deductions/additions, your lawyer just need to know where to input them. Many lawyers don't understand the adjustments, so they ignore them.

                I had to go 3 rounds with my ex's lawyer before she input my deductions into her divorsemate software to get to my number. Either she was stupid or she wanted to rack up the bill for the ex. When I pointed her to the government website and explicitly calculated my income, she found the inputs on her divorsemate.


                https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/.../w1-f1.html#s1

                Worksheet 1: Calculate your annual income

                Total income before adjustments
                Line 1 Total income (line 150)

                Adjustments to total income (use annual amounts)
                Deductions

                Line 2 Taxable child support received
                Line 3 Spousal support received from the other parent
                Line 4 Universal Child Care Benefit (UCCB)
                Line 5 Split-pension amount
                Line 6 Employment expenses
                Line 7 Social assistance received for other members of the household
                Line 8 Excess portion of dividends from taxable Canadian corporations
                Line 9 Actual business investment losses
                Line 10 Carrying charges
                Line 11 Prior-period earningsNA
                Line 12 Partnership or sole proprietorship income
                Line 13 Total deductions from income (add lines 2 through 12)

                Additions

                Line 14 Capital gains and capital losses
                Line 15 Net self-employment income
                Line 16 Capital cost allowance for property
                Line 17 Employee stock options with a Canadian-controlled private corporation
                Line 18 Total additions to income (add lines 14 to 17)
                Annual income for child support purposes

                Line 19 Annual income for child support purposes (line 1 minus line 13 plus line 18)

                Comment


                • #9
                  sorry, here is the correct link

                  https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/.../w1-f1.html#s1

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    No New Day, you are not wrong. Most lawyers and Judges aren't smart enough to figure out what income is for child support purposes.

                    Ex and her lawyer tried to use Line 150 income on my and that idiotic Divorcemate program. I got Divorcemate banned from my case because it showed I owed something like 800 or 900 a month (can't remember the exact figure). Then when everything was taken into account, I owed zero. Still have the trial decision where the judge dismissed spousal support. I wish I could post it here but that probably isn't allowed.

                    Line 150 is not income for support purposes. It never has been and it never will be. People on here need to stop spouting that nonsense.

                    At trial, I got the following lines excluded from Line 150 income including:

                    Line 10400 Other Employment Income
                    Line 12000 Taxable Dividends
                    Line 12100 Interest and other investment income
                    Line 12200 Limited Partnership Income
                    Line 12300 Taxable Capital Gains
                    Line 12900 RRSP Income

                    I didn't test any of the other lines at trial. My basic argument was this:

                    She bought a house and I decided to rent and invest. So you're punishing me just because my investment income is taxable and hers is non-taxable (capital gains in a house). So I said ok if you include my investment income as income for child support purposes then I want her non-taxable capital gains in her house each year added to her income.

                    At trial decision, all my investment income was excluded for child support purposes. Of course now it's a non-issue with TFSA's. I just put all my income in there and now it's non-taxable just like hers.

                    They also brought a contempt of court motion against me and that was dismissed too.

                    There were two things I will never ever forget about that trial.

                    At one point during the trial, the judge was furious with my ex (I forget the exact reason). So he scremed at her and asked her what her problem was. And me being the politically incorrect person that I am said "She's a c*nt, that's what her problem is" Then the judge screamed at me and said if he heard another outburst like that from me, he'd hold me in contempt of court (but I saw a little smile so I think he liked what I said...lol). I told him I was just trying to help by answering his question.

                    Then at the end of the trial, the judge made this comment. Mr [my last name] Based on your writing and conduct in Family Court, you think you are smarter than every Family Court Lawyer and Family Court Judge including me. Then he paused and I thought he was going to screw me. But then he finished his statement by saying...and you probably are and then he dismissed spousal support and contempt of court.

                    I stayed after everyone except the bailiff (or whoever that guy that watches is called) had left and I said to him. Tell the judge I think he's pretty smart too and a mind reader. Because I do think that.

                    By the way, I'm an accountant too but based on what I read on this thread a hell of a lot smarter than the other accountant who posted here who blindly wants to accept Line 150 as income.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Your case was a special one though. Not too many people have investment income and if they do, its their only income which is why it is considered.

                      For the majority of people who work a basic job (for the man) and have nothing but employment income, line 150 works. For some who have their own business, investments, special income, business expenses etc., line 150 is not applicable and it requires a deeper dive.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                        Your case was a special one though. Not too many people have investment income and if they do, it�s their only income which is why it is considered.

                        For the majority of people who work a basic job (for the man) and have nothing but employment income, line 150 works. For some who have their own business, investments, special income, business expenses etc., line 150 is not applicable and it requires a deeper dive.
                        This is exactly my case, one "normal" job where line 150 works.

                        Quick update..... he did not file his pleading to ask for spousal... YET. And I say yet, as we tried to discuss among ourselves a deal but we were not successful. Lot of factors here but the main being, he got cocky and condescending, and I got triggered and couldn't continue. Since the amendment was due, his lawyer still send them to us so I was able to review them. As you may guess they were not factual (far from it). As of yesterday they still did not file them.

                        My lawyer and I are currently putting together an offer, hopefully we can get it out this week. I like it and I think its fair, with NO spousal.

                        Wish me luck

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          When my husband was negotiating before his settlement conference, his exs lawyer got an attitude and my husband was ready to scrap everything and let the judge decide. His lawyer and I had to talk him down. When he realized he would end up paying more in fees he cooled himself.

                          It is hard dealing with a difficult ex but remember settlement is key. If he isnt entitled to spousal then definitely walk. If he is, try to negotiate. I wish you all the best luck!!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                            When my husband was negotiating before his settlement conference, his ex�s lawyer got an attitude and my husband was ready to scrap everything and let the judge decide. His lawyer and I had to talk him down. When he realized he would end up paying more in fees he cooled himself.

                            It is hard dealing with a difficult ex but remember settlement is key. If he isn�t entitled to spousal then definitely walk. If he is, try to negotiate. I wish you all the best luck!!
                            I've already told him verbally I will let a judge decide spousal. I 100 percent believe he's not entitled. I have facts and proof to support that. He does not.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Desperate_Dad View Post
                              Still have the trial decision where the judge dismissed spousal support. I wish I could post it here but that probably isn't allowed.
                              I've seen many examples of not being entitled to further spousal. I would love to see any mention of your brilliance. There are other examples of that too - WD was assigned a nice pay in one...

                              I think you're fixated on this line 150 thing.
                              All incomes will be totaled, and then exemptions will be made. Nothing special about that. With disability, about half my income is used for support purposes. Same for people with side incomes, which both you and ex had. You start with all your income sources, then argue why certain amounts shouldn't be used.

                              Comment

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