Rep sports section 7

[HammerDad]

It's hard, they ask you to go, and how can you say no? Also, it is fun to watch your children play in tournaments. It is like watching professional sports except you are much more invested in the team 'cause it's your kid.

Also, if I recall correctly HammerDad is a NCP, which means he is unlikely to not take the time he can get. It may have changed recently though, I vaguely recall him posting a thread about that.

You are right. I am an NCP, which means I get precious little time with my D.

My D also expects me to go, as I have always gone. We get some time together, and she sees I am supporting her. For certain tournaments though, the ones that are 5-6 days long, I don't go for the whole thing. I would simply go over the weekend.

If I didn't go, especially in the early years, my ex would make a big deal with our D about me not supporting her at her activities. I know this, as I mentioned that I may not go to one early on and the ex flipped about how I don't support our daughter, and that she was expected to do everything (martyring herself). So I go to a) see and spend time with my D, and b) to take the wind out of my ex's sails about me not supporting the kid.

To be honest, I do enjoy it. D normally does really well and I like seeing her happy. I try to stay out of my ex's way as much as possible, but make sure D knows I am there.

[Janus]

You could always stay home!

It's hard, they ask you to go, and how can you say no? Also, it is fun to watch your children play in tournaments. It is like watching professional sports except you are much more invested in the team 'cause it's your kid.

Also, if I recall correctly HammerDad is a NCP, which means he is unlikely to not take the time he can get. It may have changed recently though, I vaguely recall him posting a thread about that.

[rockscan]

I've been doing this for about 8 years now. It gets expensive for me, as I am covering both a portion of my ex's room and all of my own room (obviously). So tournaments always cost me a pretty penny.....

You could always stay home!

[HammerDad]

Thank you for this. We have only separated a year ago and last year was our first season through tournaments.

I've been doing this for about 8 years now. It gets expensive for me, as I am covering both a portion of my ex's room and all of my own room (obviously). So tournaments always cost me a pretty penny.

I only have a few more years left though, which is nice. This activity stops when the child graduates high school..... just in time for me to pay 2/3rds of 2/3rds of post secondary....

[beentheredonethis]

I read a case on Canlii that provided for theses sorts of expenses as being s7. That said, you may have years of status quo working against you. So be careful on how you proceed. A claim for expenses going forward would likely be successful, but know there is always the chance that it may not be.

Thank you for this. We have only separated a year ago and last year was our first season through tournaments.

[Abba435]

For you, your position should be that you have not consented to the activity. Simple as that. That the children did not participate in the activity during the marriage, and that you don't believe it is in their best interests.

All the other stuff you talk about is mainly fluff and irrelevant. Just say you don't consent and have not consented, as is your right in the separation agreement. Let her file a motion in court and argue it is in the kids best interests.

Thanks Hammerdad.
This has been my position all along and they just ignore the agreement intentionally.
My reasons have been provided in writing to two lawyers so far. They are fighting that my refusal to consent is unreasonable and not in the children's interests. I do not believe hockey is a right under any citation.
Now they are including arrears and monthly instalments in a Rule 8 Application that is set for trial in a week. FRO has already denied these claims so they are trying in court. Same for the alleged support arrears that they have completely misrepresented (just plan wrong and they know it). No attempt to try to snow FRO on that.
They (ex and lawyer) are gnawing on this bone endlessly.
Final conference tomorrow and this will be on the agenda for sure.
I wil be very relieved when this is all settled. If it ever is.

[HammerDad]

Ahhh. Ok thank you. Any thoughts on my last post? Appreciate the input.

For you, your position should be that you have not consented to the activity. Simple as that. That the children did not participate in the activity during the marriage, and that you don't believe it is in their best interests.

All the other stuff you talk about is mainly fluff and irrelevant. Just say you don't consent and have not consented, as is your right in the separation agreement. Let her file a motion in court and argue it is in the kids best interests.

[Abba435]

not a good reason..all that stuff can happen anywhere (school etc) and with any sport that is competitive.

Is this a personal opinion or is there a legal foundation here?
I am hoping for something concrete if possible.
Case law, experience etc.

[standing on the sidelines]

I refused consent from the start and gave detailed reasons why before the first registration. Expensive sport, travel, bullying, poor role models, injury.
One boy has had 2 concussions and ended his season a month ago with a broken collarbone. My daughter has been run more than once from behind.

Agreement gives either parent the right to register without consent or if the other parent does not agree to costs if the registering parent pays costs and provides travel.

She refused to provide travel so kids put on the pressure and I took them to their games and practices and made it clear in writing that I was not consenting to the cost.

We have joint custody with joint decision making and it is very explicit that activities must be by joint written consent in advance.

So as usual she makes unilateral decisions (which are specifically not permitted) and the kids end up doing what she wants.

Final conference is next week with trial week after. We will see what the judges say

not a good reason..all that stuff can happen anywhere (school etc) and with any sport that is competitive.

[Abba435]

Abba - My post wasn't directed at you. See the quote embedded in my post.

Ahhh. Ok thank you. Any thoughts on my last post? Appreciate the input.

[HammerDad]

Abba - My post wasn't directed at you. See the quote embedded in my post.

[Abba435]

I read a case on Canlii that provided for theses sorts of expenses as being s7. That said, you may have years of status quo working against you. So be careful on how you proceed. A claim for expenses going forward would likely be successful, but know there is always the chance that it may not be.

2012 separation -- no hockey

2014 separation agreement - no hockey (see excerpts below)

2014 divorce - no hockey

2016 - Ex moves kids to location that triples hockey (ALL) transportation for me

2016 - one of three was kids registered without consent. Ex provided transportation and also withheld access on more than one occasion for the one child because she found it inconvenient to drive him back and forth. Never asked, just did it.

2017 - ex registered all three kids without consent. Ex refused to provide transportation. I in writing stated I am not consenting. Because ex refuses to provide transport kids scream bloody murder so I do it on my residency days. They are now arguing implied consent because i did the driving and watched the games (see paragraph 4.12 below)

If hockey pre-dated separation agreement since 3 kids in an expensive sport then probably Section 7.

Since no consent in advance and hockey started when agreement was in force then ????

I plead normal expenses, not my problem. FRO agreed and denied her claims including implied consent. Otherwise this would be carte blanche for my ex to do as she pleases adn send me the bill.

I requested other activities other than hockey (basketball, swimming etc and was ignored.

EXCERPTS OF IN FORCE AGREEMENT

4.1 XXXX and YYYY shall share joint legal custody of their children, subject to paragraph 4.11 below.

4.6 Neither XXXX nor YYYY will schedule an event or activity for a child or the children that takes place on the other parent’s time without first obtaining the other parent’s consent in writing or by e-mail.

4.8 XXXX and YYYY will make important decisions about the children's welfare jointly, meaning neither parent can unilaterally make an important decision on behalf of the children, subject to paragraph 4.11 below. XXXX and YYYY agree “important” decisions include including decisions about:
(f) Registering the children in sports/activities/lessons that take place on the other parent’s time or impact the other parent financially, subject to paragraph 4.10
(g) Any decision having a financial impact on the other parent.
(h) Any decision having an impact on the other parent’s time.

4.10 Neither party will register the children for activities unless both of them consent to the activity and the cost in writing prior to registering the child, consent not to be unreasonably withheld. If a parent does not object to the activity but is not prepared to pay the cost of the activity or commit his/her time then the other parent may register the child for the activity provided he/she pays the cost and he/she is responsible for taking the child to and from the activity.

4.11 The parties must confer with each other and have good faith discussions on all important decisions (set out in paragraph 4.8) relating to the children.

4.17 XXXX and YYYY may both attend all the children’s doctors’ and dentists’ appointments, school functions and activities, parent teacher interviews, sporting events and religious ceremonies in which a child is participating that takes place away from the other parent’s home. The parties also mutually commit to maintaining a positive atmosphere at any such mutual attendance so as to insulate the children from any conflict or negative feelings that may exist between the parents. If one parent makes an appointment for the child (doctor, dentist, parent teacher, principal, etc.) he/she will advise the other parent and the other parent may attend. Neither party will attend a child’s doctor or dentist appointment, or parent teacher interview.

7.1 XXXX and YYYY will share the children’s special and extra-ordinary expenses in proportion to their NDI’s provided each party provides his or her consent to the expense, in writing, in advance of the expense being incurred. Neither party will unreasonably withhold his or her consent. The parties will determine their proportionate shares based on their previous year’s income as set out in paragraph 9.1 below. For example, the parties’ proportionate share for 2014 will be based on their 2013 NDI’s.

8.1 Provided XXXX is paying YYYY full table child support, YYYY shall pay for all costs for the children that are not special or extraordinary including but not limited to:
(a) Registered programs or activities that are less than $1,800 in total for all children for each period from September 1 to August 31

[HammerDad]

This is interesting. I pay for all travel for my daughter and as you saw above, $4000 for my son last year (my daughter is upwards of $5-6000 a year). I had not even considered that as part of s.7. wow.

I read a case on Canlii that provided for theses sorts of expenses as being s7. That said, you may have years of status quo working against you. So be careful on how you proceed. A claim for expenses going forward would likely be successful, but know there is always the chance that it may not be.

[Abba435]

I refused consent from the start and gave detailed reasons why before the first registration. Expensive sport, travel, bullying, poor role models, injury.
One boy has had 2 concussions and ended his season a month ago with a broken collarbone. My daughter has been run more than once from behind.

Agreement gives either parent the right to register without consent or if the other parent does not agree to costs if the registering parent pays costs and provides travel.

She refused to provide travel so kids put on the pressure and I took them to their games and practices and made it clear in writing that I was not consenting to the cost.

We have joint custody with joint decision making and it is very explicit that activities must be by joint written consent in advance.

So as usual she makes unilateral decisions (which are specifically not permitted) and the kids end up doing what she wants.

Final conference is next week with trial week after. We will see what the judges say

[dad2bandm]

I have three kids and all were introduced to hockey 3 years after separation...


...She sued me (after 8 years) for sole custody in part because she did not like that I did not consent.

Then sent the costs to FRO.
They denied the claim.
We will be in court in 2 weeks

Hockey is a different beast - as it is *so* expensive even at house level. And for 3 kids? $$$


FRO may have just denied the "costs" as perhaps they deemed it to not be child support related, or the agreement wasn't specific enough for them. FRO can only go by court order/agreement.


Sorry, does she have sole custody?



Pretty sure you'll have to split in for the hockey costs, if kids have already been in them for 3 years. Hard to say, not knowing specifics of your agreement and history of it.