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  • Spousal Support

    Background: Married 9 yrs, one child (5), separated 1yr
    Weíve have been working on the separation agreement ourselves but disagree on spousal (I donít think I should pay, ex does). A few months ago he said he would apply to the courts for spousal. Last week he changed his mind and now wants to negotiate spousal support, although he still hasnít stated a number.

    Emotionally Iím ready to pay and have this done with. I am concerned spousal support could be revisited in a few years though (ďI want moreĒ). I realize there are no guarantees but are there any clauses I can include to discourage this being reopened? I will be obtaining ILA once ex and I have finished drafting the agreement.

    Thank you for the feedback!

  • #2
    what are his grounds for SS? Never agree to pay anything, he has to prove his need for it first. If for some reason you do decide to pay him make sure its on a step down basis with termination at a certain point.

    Comment


    • #3
      I realize there are no guarantees but are there any clauses I can include to discourage this being reopened
      Yes, search the forum - if the genders were switched I would say be more careful but the likelihood of him reopening up SS with any sort of reasonably good language (SS will terminate no matter what on XYZ date, with no possibility of more or an extension) is a long shot.

      Comment


      • #4
        Tell him you'll only consider SS if and when he provides you with full financial disclosure and an offer to settle with proposed amount and duration of SS.

        Right now, it just seems like he's bluffing in hopes you'll cave in due to your emotional tiredness about the whole situation. He's trying to wear you down. The fact that he threatened court and then went back to trying to negotiate suggests that he's not sure he has a good case, so he has to rely on you caving in.

        If the true situation is that he really does not meet the tests for entitlement to spousal support, the minute you agree that he does, he magically does. Even if he wouldn't have in court.

        He probably went to a lawyer to see about the court route, and the lawyer told him his case wasn't good and that he should pressure you to settle out of court.

        Does he give reasons for wanting SS? Pass them along to us and we can tell you if it's even close to valid entitlement.

        Comment


        • #5
          In your other thread you stated he wasn't working when you negotiated CS, but that you based his income on what he was making when he last worked full time. Is he still not working? That isn't a reason to pay SS. If he's capable of working then he should be. If he makes less than you, that isn't a reason to pay SS either. Did he stay home to take care of the child while you worked?

          There are specific reasons to make SS applicable. There are also many reasons that don't. Posters here will help you figure it out with more information.

          Comment


          • #6
            I have wording in my order to the effect that "both parties agree that neither party shall seek financial gain from the other at any future date, and each party relinquishes all claims by virtue of the marriage on the other party's resources, including but not limited to, pension funds, investment income, or any form of spousal support or compensation". I don't know if this would hold up in court, but there it is. If you paid him a lump sum in exchange for a clause like this in your agreement, he might not be able to come back later for more.

            However, even before you get to the wording of the agreement, I agree with the other posters - until he provides a complete proposal for SS with total amounts and duration, you don't have to negotiate over, or even respond to, his requests for SS.

            It's probably safest to just ignore these non-specific overtures because you don't want to inadvertently give the impression that you agree with spousal support in principle, and just need to to work out the details. He needs to present you with a very convincing case as to why he should get SS at all.

            Comment


            • #7
              Probably the best discouragement your ex could experience would be for him to go through all the hoops in court to be awarded spousal support. Let him threaten to take you to court. Onus is on him to prove he is entitled. IMO there is no need to rush to settle with him at this point - you can do that later after he has some 'war scars' and experiences the very slow process of family court.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks for the replies. I'll try to answer some of the questions and then update on what I (gulp) did.

                He has not provided grounds for SS or full financial disclosure. I know both of our finances as of the separation date but not the details since. He did not work the first year of separation but started recently. I have no info on what his current work is despite asking. He will need to provide that info in the separation agreement. It will affect CS payments at the next tax cycle. In the meantime he agreed to CS amounts (I will be paying for last year) based on his last fulltime income from several years ago. CS is proportionate to our incomes, whomever makes more pays the offset.

                I assume we could each argue against/for his entitlement to SS due to our arrangement during the marriage. Naturally I think I have the stronger arguments (Bias? What's that?).

                So what did I do? I read your responses and then walked away from the computer. Admittedly I'm tired and am ready to move on. I'm willing to put a price on that and feel confident that I won't resent it. I offered a lump sum with some clauses. It's a small enough amount that years from now I think I can look back and see it as a sound investment. This is a gamble and I certainly hope it doesn't snowball into something bigger.

                I'll let you know if it all goes belly up! Thanks again, I really appreciate the collective knowledge.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Whatever you do, don't use mysupportcalculator.ca. It is just a watered down version of Divorcemate which is itself a completely flawed program. I still have the Divorcemate calculations from a few years back as well as the criteria they use to determine entitlement. If you want this, let me know.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Desperate_Dad View Post
                    ... Divorcemate which is itself a completely flawed program.
                    I'm curious. What do you see as flawed in Divorcemate?

                    Thanks,

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      How about everything?

                      Lets just take one example to prove every Divorcemate Calculation is wrong.

                      Until the most recent federal budget, government benefits were based on net income from the prior year. Yet on Divorcemate, there is no where to enter net income from the prior year. It looks like it bases government benefits on the total income. This has the effect of understating benefits the lower income spouse receives thus making the higher income spouse pay too much spousal support.

                      Rather than go on, you should google "Divorcemate Fraud" and most of my postings should show unless they were removed. And what I wrote about is just the tip of the iceberg. Just about everything they do is wrong.

                      I have Divorcemate calculations thrown out of court every time once I prove to the Judge it is fraudulent. They tried to gouge me for almost $1,000 a month at one point. At the present time, I still pay zero spousal support.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks, Desperate_Dad, your posts from a few years ago are quite detailed and helpful.

                        My case only involves spousal support. In my particular case, the range given by the SSAG is so wide that inaccuracies in Divorcemate are pretty much noise.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Desperate_Dad View Post
                          How about everything?

                          Lets just take one example to prove every Divorcemate Calculation is wrong.

                          Until the most recent federal budget, government benefits were based on net income from the prior year. Yet on Divorcemate, there is no where to enter net income from the prior year. It looks like it bases government benefits on the total income. This has the effect of understating benefits the lower income spouse receives thus making the higher income spouse pay too much spousal support.

                          Rather than go on, you should google "Divorcemate Fraud" and most of my postings should show unless they were removed. And what I wrote about is just the tip of the iceberg. Just about everything they do is wrong.

                          I have Divorcemate calculations thrown out of court every time once I prove to the Judge it is fraudulent. They tried to gouge me for almost $1,000 a month at one point. At the present time, I still pay zero spousal support.
                          In Quebec we have a software called aliform which seems pretty good, it takes into consideration all the govt. benefits and then shows you a low - high for spousal support based on NDI. The only thing left out of the formula is special expenses which are calculated against "pre-spousal" support income which I don't like and seems inconsistent.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            That's very true.

                            I work in a job that has a good pension.

                            Gross is decent but after your pension contribution and other benefits are paid, your net is very low. However they use your gross. Yes,the pension is good but you don't get it for another decade plus.

                            I often think it would be nice to have my monthly contribution (1200) in my pocket.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Links 17 I have written before about this special extraordinary expenses crap so I know where you are coming from. Imagine one spouse makes 80,000 and the other makes 20,000 then child support and spousal support even it up at 50/50 or thereabouts. Then suddenly they base special expenses on an 80/20 split? Excuse me? It's already split 50/50 so why should the spouse making 80,000 make 80% of the special expenses? Whoever thought up this must have the intellect of an amoeba. Ohh wait - it was a lawyer so now it makes sense.

                              IfIhadonlyknown - I'm glad you found my posts useful. I have much more information on how bad this Divorcemate program is but I didn't post it all. This program should be banned from every court. It's basically institutionalized stealiing.

                              Comment

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