Multivitamins & Supplements - Special & Extraordinary?

[Maggie82]

Quick question: Would basic supplements like multivitamins, probiotics, fish oils, etc. be considered a special and extraordinary expense? Or would they be a basic need like Tylenol or Benadryl or Vitamin C (hence covered in child support)?

[blinkandimgone]

Unless prescribed by a doctor, they would be a basic need. Cs covers the kids regular, daily expenses.

[Maggie82]

Would you consider "suggested by a naturopath" prescribed by a doctor?

[arabian]

no. To say something is suggested by a naturopath has about as much weight as "suggested by the hairdresser" IMO.

here is a case from Alberta where naturopathic medications were deemed to not be an extraordinary expense:

https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcsc/do...&resultIndex=2

[Maggie82]

Some background: Both Mom and Dad have been providing their son with multivitamins and probiotics and what not in their respective homes. Just like they would provide Tylenol or allergy medicine or what not. Recently, Mom took the child to a naturopath who suggested he continue taking daily multivitamins and add some probiotics and veggie smoothies to his daily regimen. Mom bought all the supplements suggested by the naturopath and sent Dad the bill demanding he reimburse her half. Dad feels this is ridiculous as he wasn't consulted prior to the expense and the supplements are basic things like multivitamins and fish oils. Something that Dad feels is reasonably covered in child support like Tylenol or Benadryl or Bandaids. Mom feels otherwise and believes that because the naturopath suggested this "treatment" to ensure the child has a "healthy lifestyle" it is considered a special and extraordinary expense for which Dad should pay.

[arabian]

I wouldn't be surprised if the "supplements" are sold at naturopath's office and he receives a cut.

In case law I briefly canvassed today, much of extraordinary expenses go to what parents originally agreed to. If this is an expense that was unilaterally decided upon without other parent's approval then she will have to eat it. Lesson to be learned is to get the other parent's ok prior to purchasing the item.

Note the reference to the naturopath in the case law I provided as "quasi-medical individuals" (para. 31):

... I do not intend what I have just stated to confer on Ms. Gilbert unbridled authority to take the child to naturopaths or other quasi-medical individuals nor to purchase for the child, at Mr. Gilbert’s expense, non-prescription medications and health supplements. If, in her judgment, she believes to do so is beneficial for the child she may do so - but not at Mr. Gilbert’s expense....

[Maggie82]

Thanks Arabian. We read the case law and used it to support Dad's position that supplements and non-prescription medications are not considered special and extraordinary expenses and can be reasonably covered by the child support Dad pays.

This is just one of the many attempts for money that has come at Dad recently... coincidently since Mom found out she's pregnant. (She has even gone as far as demanding to know how Dad will increase his support for their child "given the future changes to her family." As if her choosing to have another child is her other child's father's financial problem.)

[Maggie82]

Another quick question...

Mom says Dad is on the hook for supplements and non prescribed medication because he wasn't opposed to her taking the child to a naturopath. Dad did tell her to go ahead if she wanted to (the visit is covered by dad's health plan), but the issue of supplements was never discussed and Dad never agreed to buying or sharing the cost of supplements. Mom says that Dad's agreement to the visit was also his agreement to share the cost of supplements because they are an expense associated with the visit.

What is irksome in this situation is that Dad has already been providing his son with most of the supplements when his son is with him, as he already has these products in his home for the whole family to use. Mom has never contributed to this cost and was never asked to. But now that Mom wants to also provide supplements for the child, she expects Dad to pay for half of the supplements for her house. One she will likely use for her family as well.

Can she use Dad having no opposition to a naturopathic visit as "agreement" to Dad sharing the cost of supplements? Even though there was never any discussion about it?

[rockscan]

Kids go to dentists and they provide advice on braces and parents have to discuss and agree. Kids go to eye doctors and they sell glasses at a higher price point than say costco or lenscrafters and they have to agree. Regardless of whether the supplements are s7 or not, mom made a choice to purchase without dads input.

Why is he continuing to engage? He needs to say no these are covered by child support and not extraordinary and he wont be paying for them. Period. The end. Any response is set on ignore.

[stripes]

A naturopath isn't a doctor, therefore can't "prescribe" supplements. This comes under the heading of suggestions, not medical advice or necessity. If Mom wants to give Kid supplements, that's fine, but Dad can choose not to pay for them. If the naturopath was a medical doctor, it might be different.

Just say no, and then stop discussing this with Mom. You aren't going to convince her that Dad is right.

[nomad]

in my case I have an autistic son and I pay $200, extra a month for the very same things you listed , my ex is under employed and she was able to get that added to the support order , how ever she is giving my son marijuana capsules that she is making at home so things are before the courts cause there is no way in hell that counts as a suppliment

[Maggie82]

Thank you for your replies, Rockscan and Stripes. You are both right. There is no convincing Mom that Dad is ever right. It is time to stop responding. It's just heartbreaking to see the Dad-bashing that ensues every time Dad stands his ground and doesn't let himself be used as Mom's personal ATM. Dad pays support as per the Guidelines and adjusts accordingly every year. He also pays for half of 6 extracurricular activities and 2 camps per year, as well as for half his son's monthly cell phone bill. Not only that, he provides all the necessities (including clothing - which is a battle Dad stopped fighting years ago) in his home for the every-other-weekends that his son is with him. Yet every time Mom demands money and Dad says no, Mom belittles him and goes on and on about how he doesn't care for his son or have his son's health and best interest at heart, and how he only wants to "weasel" his way out of paying for his son's necessities, etc. You'd think we'd be used to it after 12 years but it still cuts deep. As I'm sure many of you can relate.

[Maggie82]

in my case I have an autistic son and I pay $200, extra a month for the very same things you listed , my ex is under employed and she was able to get that added to the support order , how ever she is giving my son marijuana capsules that she is making at home so things are before the courts cause there is no way in hell that counts as a supplement

That's interesting. Do you think it was her underemployment or you're son's condition that caused the judge to view basic supplements (multivitamins, probiotics, fish oils) as an extraordinary expense? From what I've read and the info I've received here, it seems that health supplements and non-prescription medication is typically not considered special and extraordinary unless mutually agreed upon by the parties.

I wish you all the best in court.

[nomad]

I think it was both , I want my child to have what he needs and the judge could see she was just wasting time and she had asked for $400.00 orginally but I gave the judge a text from her demanding 400 a month for spousal support that wasn't granted to her so she listed 400 for suppliments and he split it to 200 each , she could produce recipts so basically he split it and got us out of his court room cause she just wastes everyones time

[stripes]

Thank you for your replies, Rockscan and Stripes. You are both right. There is no convincing Mom that Dad is ever right. It is time to stop responding. It's just heartbreaking to see the Dad-bashing that ensues every time Dad stands his ground and doesn't let himself be used as Mom's personal ATM. Dad pays support as per the Guidelines and adjusts accordingly every year. He also pays for half of 6 extracurricular activities and 2 camps per year, as well as for half his son's monthly cell phone bill. Not only that, he provides all the necessities (including clothing - which is a battle Dad stopped fighting years ago) in his home for the every-other-weekends that his son is with him. Yet every time Mom demands money and Dad says no, Mom belittles him and goes on and on about how he doesn't care for his son or have his son's health and best interest at heart, and how he only wants to "weasel" his way out of paying for his son's necessities, etc. You'd think we'd be used to it after 12 years but it still cuts deep. As I'm sure many of you can relate.

If it's still cutting this deep after 12 years, may I suggest that Dad seek some professional help from a counselor (by himself, individually)? Dad may be able to learn new ways to detach from the emotions that Mom evokes, and to enable the people around him to detach as well. It sounds like Dad know what to do - when Mom makes unreasonable requests - just say no - but the part that comes next, putting Mom's issues down and walking away from them, is not working so well for him. Twelve years is too long, and makes me think that this dynamic may have become a routine - Mom wants something, Dad says no, Mom gets mad, Dad reacts by feeling sad. He may need help breaking this emotional habit.