Pay for all section 7 or fight it?

[twister777]

Looks like we're going to court. Over section 7 expenses. Sports only.

Ex makes approx $15,000 a year but seeing as she makes $20 an hour I think its fair to say she could work more than 2x/week. All the kids are in school full time.

Got an email from my lawyer with the section 7 expenses she is claiming $1300 for dance for my daughter from 2012-now. I was only ever asked once about dance and I said no as it was an expensive sport. Ex put her in anyways. Never seen a receipt. Just a letter from the dance academy and money paid over 3 years.

Also a receipt for karate my son was enrolled in. I was never asked about nor ever told he was in karate. Do I really have to pay for every flippen sports she chooses to put the kids in?

My agreement says we have to give each other consent.

My lawyer seems to think I should just pay it. Where is the line drawn on extra ordinary extra curricular? I don't mind payinfor some sports but would like to have a say in them and the duration!

[dinkyface]

These seem like pretty reasonable expenses. But you're tied in a knot about the fact that she's making the call - likely because she knows you'd just say no - which would be sad for the kids.

I suggest you cough up some money for this - using some imputed income (perhaps 25K?) for her to determine the ratios. This will also make it MUCH less likely she will take you to court.

UNLESS you are making LOTS of money (over 100K), and these amounts could be considered part of CS, OR you are making very little money (under 25k), and these costs would be considered excessive for your joint means.

[mcdreamy]

OP, you've been posting since 2011 about s7 expenses, and apparently saying no to every request for an activity. How much have you paid out in legal fees since 2011?

I paid all extracurricular s7 expenses for kidlet, I wasn't prepared to argue over what activity kidlet chose to participate in. And our sport expenses went high.

Although you are correct, an income could be imputed, and more than likely league recreation could be argued to be included in your cs payments, why don't you consider setting a reasonable annual budget per child based on their past participation in their chosen sport, and advising the ex anything over and above is hers alone unless she has your written consent? If you offered $1000/annum/child, would that be reasonable and acceptable to each of you?

[twister777]

I like the budget idea! I have contemplated giving an extra $150 a month on support for this. Only thing is she wouldn't be satisfied and hang on to receipts and claim I never paid a dime. The extra $ on top of support shed say was gifted.

I will talk to my lawyer about this. Great idea.

I do not fight every activity. I would be nice my children at the ages 7,8,10 knew how to swim though or tried soccer and t-ball instead of the hockey and dance. The karate is more of an issue because I was never notified about it. Just thrown a receipt.

[twister777]

I know she's pushing for summer camp as well coming up. $500 per kid. With me paying up to 80% this gets ridiculous when she doesn't care about the finances.

[Rioe]

I like the budget idea! I have contemplated giving an extra $150 a month on support for this. Only thing is she wouldn't be satisfied and hang on to receipts and claim I never paid a dime. The extra $ on top of support shed say was gifted.

I will talk to my lawyer about this. Great idea.

I do not fight every activity. I would be nice my children at the ages 7,8,10 knew how to swim though or tried soccer and t-ball instead of the hockey and dance. The karate is more of an issue because I was never notified about it. Just thrown a receipt.

Personally, I see swimming as an essential survival skill, and not just a fun activity for kids. If you want them to know how to swim, enroll them yourself during your time with the kids, and next time your ex asks for money for one of her activities, you can subract her share of this one.

Karate was not discussed in advance, therefore you don't need to pay it. You could offer her a bit of reimbursement if the kids love it, though, as a demonstration that you are not unwilling, but simply unable to pay a proper share of something that you were prevented from knowing about, and budgeting for, in advance.

[twister777]

I wish I could enroll them in swimming lessons when I have them every other weekend but there is no swimming lessons available that time.

I wish she would see that instead of summer camps maybe at their age get the swimming lessons done for now.

My daughter wouldn't even sleep over at her cousins house two houses away nor sleep over at her grandmothers - she just doesn't like sleepovers yet...don't see how the summer camp is going to work there.

Yet she pushes it.

I take the kids swimming as much as I can and my wife and I work with them on swimming --- its just not enough.

I honestly don't fight about every sport. I only denied hockey and dance as they are expensive and my ex only makes $10,000 -$15,000 a year. I agreed on rec hockey where there is no away games so my two sons are not travelling apart each weekend it is just too hard when I only get them 4 days a month.

As for dance I was asked once. I was told it is $1000 a year by ex for my at the time 4 yr old daughter. I declined that as well. I suggested gymnastics, swimming, piano.... She put her in anyways and has put her in 2 more years after that and is now asking for back pay.

The dance came to $1300 for all 3 years. To me that is reasonable. Had I been given the proper information I would not have declined.

We have braces coming for my son this year and all 3 need extensive dental work. In a normal household something would have to give. She wants it all and makes $10-15,000 a year. Just no regard for my finances. And the fact I pay full table cs.

[mcdreamy]

She's not working full time, is she. That is why her income so low?

Would the cost of a camp be in lieu of the cost of daycare, or is the camp an additional cost?

Is she prepared to have an income imputed to her for s7 expenses, and agree to a reasonable budget for extracurricular activities? I can't imagine she wants to head to trial either, there has to be room for some negotiation on her end. This won't look good for her if it goes to trial, particularly with the upcoming braces/dental work that needs to be completed for the kids.

Talk to your lawyer about proposing a budget, send your final settlement offer, and ask for costs. From what you have posted, I think you are being more than reasonable.

[Beachnana]

I wish I could enroll them in swimming lessons when I have them every other weekend but there is no swimming lessons available that time.

I wish she would see that instead of summer camps maybe at their age get the swimming lessons done for now.

My daughter wouldn't even sleep over at her cousins house two houses away nor sleep over at her grandmothers - she just doesn't like sleepovers yet...don't see how the summer camp is going to work there.

Yet she pushes it.

I take the kids swimming as much as I can and my wife and I work with them on swimming --- its just not enough.

I honestly don't fight about every sport. I only denied hockey and dance as they are expensive and my ex only makes $10,000 -$15,000 a year. I agreed on rec hockey where there is no away games so my two sons are not travelling apart each weekend it is just too hard when I only get them 4 days a month.

As for dance I was asked once. I was told it is $1000 a year by ex for my at the time 4 yr old daughter. I declined that as well. I suggested gymnastics, swimming, piano.... She put her in anyways and has put her in 2 more years after that and is now asking for back pay.

The dance came to $1300 for all 3 years. To me that is reasonable. Had I been given the proper information I would not have declined.

We have braces coming for my son this year and all 3 need extensive dental work. In a normal household something would have to give. She wants it all and makes $10-15,000 a year. Just no regard for my finances. And the fact I pay full table cs.

Private leasons can be booked at your convenience at most sports facilities. My daughter taught swimming for years and always did private lessons.

[Rioe]

We have braces coming for my son this year and all 3 need extensive dental work. In a normal household something would have to give. She wants it all and makes $10-15,000 a year. Just no regard for my finances. And the fact I pay full table cs.

I'd be saying no to any section 7 expenses except for the dental, with the very valid reason that it is the highest priority and all available funds should go to it. Tell your ex there is simply no money left over for anything else.

[twister777]

The only negotiating she is willing to do is give her what she wants. She is the one pursing this in court.

The camp is not in leiu of daycare. It is her simply wanting to put them in camp cause her friends put their kids in camp. To her most of the section7 expenses are for her status quo.

There is no reason the kids can not play soccer, t-ball, gymnastics, swimming etc.

I am very ok with Karate too. Just never was informed about it just slammed with a receipt.

She has been pushing for braces on my 10yr old since he was 7. I refused over the last 3 yrs because he was much to young and still losing baby teeth. He was also irresponsible with brushing his teeth.

I have suggested to my lawyer about the budget. He suggests we wait and see what she does next then we will suggest mediation before court since we are supposed to go that route before court according to our agreement.

I have asked for mediation in the past and she refused in writing. It was about the sports back then too.

[MrToronto]

Your ex can set up payment plans with the dentist for braces so it eases the pain.

A receipt is notification ( I went through that at Trial)

Let me save you 10,000 dollars in Conferences and a $20,000.00 Trial your end result will be the Judge asking for submissions on clearer language around special expenses from both parties for a new Order.

All special expenses you were asked to pay up to the point of the new and improved Order your going to be paying.

And while your at Court they are going to increase your child support because your income probably went up (maybe back for 3 years.)

"special expenses" are a side issue (until post secondary) and are "after thoughts" at Trial ... but totally slanted to primary caregiver and what that person thinks is best for junior".

Your best hope is "you have no money" so as to get thrown out,the primary caregivers whims for junior.

if you have the money (to waste on a lawyer) you can pay for gold plated skates for the kids.

[twister777]

A receipt is notification after the fact? Without the consent that clearly is stated in the agreement?

Either way I have never been given a receipt. Just now through disclosure am I seeing the expenses.

I have paid for all other section 7 expenses...the concern is extra-ordinary expenses for extra curricular. Not for all extra curricular!

I am aware support will increase and I am fine with paying it according to my income on a yearly basis. I would like it put in our agreement that it will automatically be changed July 1 every year according to last years income.

My work fluctuates. I could make 80,000 one year 60,000 the next and then up to 90,000 the next. It would only be fair that we adjust it accordingly on a yearly basis.

She is pursuing this. I have spoke with my lawyer and I will be willing to give her an offer on past expenses if we can come up with a budget for the extra curricular activities. At their age I would be willing to do $600 per year per kid (my share). $750 is sufficient per kid per year. And that is my opinion. Everyone has their own ideas on how much stuff they want to put their kids in. And I would add that to my support monthly $150.

With this in mind should it not be put in the agreement? I don't want to just throw her extra money and then her try to claim I never pitched in for sports.

[MrToronto]

"Consent" is a nice word. Most agreements have wishy washy terms around this (will notify or give notice or if she seeks reimbursement for) feel good item.

Ms. Twister777 SHALL on any special expense she contemplates notify Mr Twister77 for consent 30 days prior to purchase in writing. Mr. Twisters consent will not be unreasonably withheld.

(there's probably clearer wording but I just used this para. for example)

Because your stuck with "a blank check" agreement there is one thing you can do which is extremely effective. Start going to the activities, ask for the child's schedules

Activities tend to dry up when an ex is at the soccer games, or dance classes. Some not all "blank special expense check" support receivers hate it that they can't dump a child off at a soccer game for an hour to have "me" time.

Kids tend to drop activities quickly so it's best to be around to check up, which also forces the "me time" ex to sit and watch the soccer game "always" and you'll enjoy the kids activities a lot more than you should for that reason.

or

You have an ex that "uses" your agreement for everything it's got (to drain you dry) With 3 kids your going to be paying medical. dental, " kids activities" along with a 18 year old post secondary adult child in the near future. (then 3 adult kids)

Your going to need a bona fide documented "change in circumstances" plan for when you get a mix of young/adult kids or 3 adult kids. Your ex knows your agreement and won't amend it (I'll bet)

80 percent offset is horrible (Judges think it's fine and dandy if you got the income and Judge's also don't give a dam on what the ex's "plans for kids are even the adult kids" because any plan works (fact or fiction)

if the ex won't "get a job" maybe you shouldn't "work so hard" in the future

[thefunone]

Just went through all this with my ex. Arbitrator ruled that ex pays first 1800.00 of all registration costs for kids activities...I pay an extra 400.00/mth on top of table CS for S7.
S7 was deemed by the arbitrator to be any activity..competitive or not...summer camps...Kumon (extra schooling).
Ex and I fought over what was an S7 expense and reading the SSAG it states 'extraordinary extracurricular activities'...
Arbitrator ruled that because we could not agree - ex was given power to make decisions without my agreement - i just have to sit and eat it.
Receipts from activities are provided to me for the purposes of bookkeeping...if I over pay my portion per year - then that overpayment is returned to me.

SOOOO...if the total of the S7 registrations from above for the calendar year come to say 6k per year...minus her first 1800.00...the balance is 4200.00.........my S7 % portion is at 69% therefore $2898.00...I pay 400.00/mth...(4800/yr)...so I should get refunded almost 2K...this is just in effect now..will see how it all plays out.