Extra Ordinary Expenses

[Wyntermcd]

I'm finding myself frustrated in trying to determine what is considered extra ordinary expenses based on cp's income.

Do they have any sort of tables that say cp income is 40000 so any section 7's that exceed X amount are considered extraordinary ?

[MS Mom]

I'm finding myself frustrated in trying to determine what is considered extra ordinary expenses based on cp's income.

Do they have any sort of tables that say cp income is 40000 so any section 7's that exceed X amount are considered extraordinary ?

Proportionate share is how the $s are calculated.

Your Income + Ex's Income = Total Income.
Your Income / Total Income = Your proportionate share.

As for what qualifies S7, that is a highly contested issue.

Uncovered medical/dental expenses (over $100), daycare (provided CP is working) and some extra curricular activities. Generally speaking, the sports and activities your children enjoyed when you were together should be considered under S7.

[Wyntermcd]

It's the extra curriculars that are the issue at the moment and leading to arguments. I was hoping to find something that gives an idea of if these are even considered expenses that both parties share because of the income levels.

[Rioe]

Would you have signed up for and paid for the activity without much thought when the marriage was intact?

Or would you have had to have a serious discussion and save for the activity, or made sacrifices to give the child the opportunity?

It's the difference between paying for the school field trip to the local museum, and the senior trip out of the country for a week. The difference between house league hockey and serious competitive hockey. The rented musical instrument and simple music lessons for a hobby, vs the expensive, quality instrument with a reputed instructor for the prodigy.

[FWB]

I was hoping to find something that gives an idea of if these are even considered expenses that both parties share because of the income levels.

Section 7 items, as well as special expenses have been pointed out / written in black and white in many cases

Items that don't fall into these categories, are just frivolous expenses that the individual parties have to take care of by themselves

[stripes]

I'm finding myself frustrated in trying to determine what is considered extra ordinary expenses based on cp's income.

Do they have any sort of tables that say cp income is 40000 so any section 7's that exceed X amount are considered extraordinary ?

I don't believe there is any such table. And remember, not all S7 expenses are "extraordinary expenses". Examples of S7 expenses which are not treated as extraordinary include child care, medical/dental costs about $100 not covered by insurance, and postsecondary education.

If you're talking about extracurricular expenses, I think you can ask yourself a series of questions:

1) Is the expense in question for something which will really benefit the child (an ongoing activity or sport which the child enjoys or excels at)?

2) Does it cost more than the CP could reasonably be expected to cover, given his/her income including child support? (i.e. if the CP earns $45K per year, pizza lunches aren't extraordinary but soccer camp might be. If the CP earns $100K per year, soccer camp might not be extraordinary either).

3) Is it an expense which I would have been willing to pay if we had remained married (i.e. is it something which would have been affordable and desirable if our incomes had been pooled) ?

If the answer to all three questions is yes, then I'd consider it a legitimate extraordinary expense. Whether or not the expense meets question 2 is the big question.

[billm]

Extracurricular is not (necessarily) extraordinary.

When considering if a sport/activity is extraordinary, one must consider the COMBINED income of the the parents, as well as the total of all the extracurricular cost.

For example, we spend about $1k per child per year (3 kids) for extracurricular currently. Given that our combined incomes are about 140K, this is NOT extraordinary and not section 7 and is covered by CS (which includes the table CS for the custodial parent!).

In my case, I have shared custody and we pay offset CS, so we split the cost of non section 7 costs 50/50.

[FWB]

In my case, I have shared custody and we pay offset CS, so we split the cost of non section 7 costs 50/50.

Same here to the words in BOLD. However, what is a typical example of an item where you split cost 50/50?

[Qrious]

I'm finding myself frustrated in trying to determine what is considered extra ordinary expenses based on cp's income.

Do they have any sort of tables that say cp income is 40000 so any section 7's that exceed X amount are considered extraordinary ?

There would probably be a lot less conflict if there was a table to help figure this out... But there is not.

Another consideration in determining S7 is not only a single cost of fees or a piece of equipment, but the accumulated cost, as billm pointed out.

For example, my S15's expenses for last hockey and soccer season totalled nearly $14,000 - over $1000 per month. Taken separately, the expenses are not thought of as S7 - $180 for hockey pants..... $150 for soccer cleats..... $350 for a hockey stick (of which S went through 7 last year alone).... $800 for skates..... etc.

When you look at the individual expenses alone, most seem reasonable for our incomes. When added together.... most probable S7.

(FYI - X will not willingly help pay for S7 expenses. I pay these on my own. At CC judge did mention that she would consider these expenses to be extraordinary in my case. I settled before trial and agreed to his not contributing so will not see his share for these. I do receive full table CS but it doesn't amount to the sports expenses per month - c'est la vie)

[Serene]

You know what I suggest? If you can't afford it then you ask the other parent to contribute. If they can't contribute then it is a no go. If you can afford it, then you can pay for it. Forget about section 7 definition blah blah blah...

We pay full guideline amount AND a whole slew of many other things. We can afford it. In fact, mom can easily afford the full amount herself too for these expenses. But we just pay it anyways. It is easier and it creates less opportunity for conflict.

I will probably be reamed out for this stance but only in family law do we afford things we cannot afford and then we fight about what the other parent could have or should have paid for. You don't typically buy a car or house you can't afford so the same should apply here.

[Qrious]

You know what I suggest? If you can't afford it then you ask the other parent to contribute. If they can't contribute then it is a no go. If you can afford it, then you can pay for it. Forget about section 7 definition blah blah blah...

We pay full guideline amount AND a whole slew of many other things. We can afford it. In fact, mom can easily afford the full amount herself too for these expenses. But we just pay it anyways. It is easier and it creates less opportunity for conflict.

I will probably be reamed out for this stance but only in family law do we afford things we cannot afford and then we fight about what the other parent could have or should have paid for. You don't typically buy a car or house you can't afford so the same should apply here.

I agree, Serene. If I couldn't afford those expenses on my own, S wouldn't be able to participate. Simple as that.

And on the other hand, just because X refuses to contribute, doesn't mean S doesn't get to participate because I won't pay the expenses on my own.

It would be nice if X would help out, but the fact that he doesn't isn't going to change the activities S participates in and loves.

This is in the best interests of my child.... not my bank account.

[dad2bandm]

...
For example, my S15's expenses for last hockey and soccer season totalled nearly $14,000 - over $1000 per month. Taken separately, the expenses are not thought of as S7 - $180 for hockey pants..... $150 for soccer cleats..... $350 for a hockey stick (of which S went through 7 last year alone).... $800 for skates.....

That's nuts.

[FWB]

You know what I suggest? If you can't afford it then you ask the other parent to contribute. If they can't contribute then it is a no go. If you can afford it, then you can pay for it. Forget about section 7 definition blah blah blah...

You beat me to this....well said. I mean $14,000 for Hockey for 1 kid, imagine it were 3 boys? I can see why a potential payor will be up in arms about this

I do receive full table CS but it doesn't amount to the sports expenses per month

This is in the best interests of my child.... not my bank account.

OK...but we also try to make our kids understand that they won't always get what they want in life...those that don't learn that from a younger age, are the ones that grow up to be an entitlement burden
I don't know where you are buying the soccer cleats, but $150 is a lot for a pair, unless of course is buying one with Messi, Beckham, or Ronnaldo's name on it

I will probably be reamed out for this stance but only in family law do we afford things we cannot afford and then we fight about what the other parent could have or should have paid for. You don't typically buy a car or house you can't afford so the same should apply here.

Not by those of us that are able to reason and see that you do indeed have a valid point, and your analogy is appropriate for the discussions. I'll like to have my child in a top private school with me paying proportionally to income...will my ex subscribe to that? Hell to the nah

For example, my S15's expenses for last hockey and soccer season totalled nearly $14,000 - over $1000 per month. Taken separately, the expenses are not thought of as S7 - $180 for hockey pants..... $150 for soccer cleats..... $350 for a hockey stick (of which S went through 7 last year alone).... $800 for skates..... etc.

Just curious...have you considered less expensive sports for the kid? I mean there is Squash, ball hockey, volleyball, curling etc

That's nuts.

Saw the movie...the nutjob with kidlet recently, hilarious it was. Recommend to parents when you have your kids

[Qrious]

I don't know where you are buying the soccer cleats, but $150 is a lot for a pair, unless of course is buying one with Messi, Beckham, or Ronnaldo's name on it

Just curious...have you considered less expensive sports for the kid? I mean there is Squash, ball hockey, volleyball, curling etc

I guess you buy cheap cleats. I don't. Have a look online. Quality men's cleats are expensive.

Why would I consider a less expensive sport for S? We are both quite happy with the sports he is in. I am not asking YOU to contribute, so I am not sure why you care.

He also plays basketball, track&field, and cross-country running. Those are less expensive sports. Satisfied?

I was trying to help the OP with their question, not asking for all your opinions on how I spend my money, thanks.

[MS Mom]

I agree, Serene. If I couldn't afford those expenses on my own, S wouldn't be able to participate. Simple as that.

And on the other hand, just because X refuses to contribute, doesn't mean S doesn't get to participate because I won't pay the expenses on my own.

It would be nice if X would help out, but the fact that he doesn't isn't going to change the activities S participates in and loves.

This is in the best interests of my child.... not my bank account.

Important to note that Qrious. Thanks. My ex doesn't want to contribute even though his income is three times mine. Does she participate anyway? Yes, of course she does. At the cost of my retirement fund. Why? Because she has two parents that can afford it based out of their combined income. It isn't the child's fault the other parent would rather pay for his own activities over her's.