Anyone else feeling hopeless, financially?

[DadwithSon]

I agree with Janus. Whatever the system thinks money is being spent on, I know I work more than double the hours my ex works but she is the one able to afford to go out for dinner on her nights or get drinks during my nights. She spends and spends MONEY I PAY HER on her own comfort and entertainment.

I'm not trying to say I should be able to make her budget. That is her life, her business. But when I am the one working long hours so she can enjoy comforts I can't afford, that really burns.

[separatedman]

I understand your frustration. When my ex sold all our investments I watched the stocks/mutual funds rise by approx 5 months later...therefore approx $8,000 loss to me. What can I do? Nothing except wait for the final divorce and get 50% of what it was worth when we split up.

[Tayken]

He never said that he didn't love his children. He said that he despaired since his payments to his ex were so crippling that it left him unable to provide adequately for his children.

His financial well being is well within his control and always has been. The guidelines contrary to "popular belief" do not leave parents destitute. Their financial decisions do in my personal opinion. You can disagree with me on this one if you would like. But, the guidelines are vetted by a large body of experts and if there was a systemic issue with them it would be addressed.

Being in debt is a stressful situation, one that often leads to suicidal ideation.

Which is best addressed by seeking the assistance of a qualified mental health professional.

Secondly, a financial advisor can assist in putting the financial situation into perspective.

Thirdly, if the financial advisor comes to the conclusion that the situation is unworkable, they can provide an affidavit in support of a motion for an adjustment to CS/SS on a motion to change due to material circumstances. If the parent is under undue hardship and a qualified financial advisor (licensed and registered) can demonstrate to the court that the parent is unable to meet the expectations at no fault of their own it would be valuable evidence to the fact. Finally, a court will consider this in relation to CS and SS payments but, clear, cogent and relevant evidence from an expert would be advised.

Paying onerous levels of CS and SS is like being in debt, except that this is a debt that cannot be paid off, and any income earned will increase the debt. This makes it even worse than being in regular debt, and more stressful.

See comment above.

Most people have an expectation that their lives could improve.

They "can" improve and often do for parents who are separate and apart and divorced. In fact, the vast majority of them that never have to go to court, settle matters amicably that are never tracked by Statistics Canada.

Maybe today is bad, but tomorrow might be better. In many cases, CS and SS removes that expectation. A payor is told by the court that life will not get better, that payments will continue at all costs.

I disagree. There are tools, Rules and other means to fix the situation but, one has to take the right path to do so... Lamenting about it on a public message board really isn't helping the situation for the "payor".

This is what the OP is facing. Mouthing platitudes about how any money you give the ex is great for the kids doesn't fly for people who are facing these situations in real life.

If the situation is "real" then there are remedies that one can seek to improve the situation. Rather than telling people there is no hope, I choose to offer recommendations on how to resolve the problem than tell them there is no solution, they are screwed by the system and it doesn't get better.

Of course OP is going to love his kids and support them emotionally in their endeavors, his worry was about the financial end of things, and last I checked, loving your kids is not accepted as payment by the courts (or ex spouses).

Actually, the court does accept this as "payment"... But, that is governed by Rule 24 of the Children's Law Reform Act in the Custody and Access determination. Of which, this parent has 50% custody and access which is a very good "payment", fair and just in my honest opinion.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[Tayken]

I agree with Janus. Whatever the system thinks money is being spent on, I know I work more than double the hours my ex works but she is the one able to afford to go out for dinner on her nights or get drinks during my nights. She spends and spends MONEY I PAY HER on her own comfort and entertainment.

Put this into an affidavit and see what a Judge has to say...

I'm not trying to say I should be able to make her budget. That is her life, her business. But when I am the one working long hours so she can enjoy comforts I can't afford, that really burns.

Why do you even care then? What benefit has your cathartic statement about how the other parent wastes money improved parental communications and your children's "best interests"?

[sa_snoopin]

Sharong593 - I'm pretty much in the same boat as you except no children involved. He's got the paid off house, all 3 cars (he stole the car I'd been driving and I had to borrow/rent), he emptied the bank account and it's been a year and no resolve. Despite hiring several different lawyers, I'm still waiting for the courts to order him to pay me my half. He didn't hire a single lawyer but he's been getting away with everything.
Where the hell is the justice in this country? I'm struggling to pay bills and have lost a lot of weight because my income is so low that I can barely buy groceries... yet the judges have not made a single order. All they do is tell him off during the conferences and tell him to get a lawyer and settle.
He just ignores it all because he's in a great position. It seems there's nothing we can do because we can't afford to buy justice and the judges are siding with the men when there are no children involved.
The only thing that keeps me going is that there's a God somewhere up there and one day.... that hope is all I've got left after 30 years of marriage. He cheated on me several times and a few times with a friend. Justice doesn't exist on this planet.

[sa_snoopin]

Tayken,
All that you've mentioned... Financial advisors, taking action to correct situations, etc... all cost money! Utlimately it's the judges decision.
In my case I've got concrete proof that I paid for, I've hired lawyers that have cost me dearly and put me in the poor house yet I'm still where I was a year ago. The ex has not spent a penny on Financial advisors or lawyers and he's still holding all the money, hasn't had to pay a cent towards SS (which I'm entitled to), took away all 3 cars puting me in a desperate position, is in possession of the matrimonial house which is paid off while I'm in a rental... There are 8 police incident reports against him due to abuse (not physcial), he was asked to leave the house twice, he's been ordered to stay away from me.... yet we're still in court and the judge has yet to make a decision to even allow me half of what's in the accounts. I've proved financial hardship yet the judges refuse to make an order. What gives?
We're now going to settlement conference in January. I've had to learn the Family Law Rules because I cannot afford a lawyer anymore.
We are both under orders to provide a fair settlement offer, give our last paystub to each other on Jan. 9th. I've provided him with a fair offer all ready.
I've discovered that he's asked his company to give him time off without pay and has been home for 3 weeks now. All in an effort to show a lower income.
So no, I disagree with you - there is NO justice in our courts. Tell me what I've not done to try and resolve this and end it fairly? I have no more money for legal help.
He cheated with several other women including a woman who was a friend of mine for 20 years! I

[Janus]

His financial well being is well within his control and always has been. The guidelines contrary to "popular belief" do not leave parents destitute.

The guidelines are designed with the idea that a parent does not have to pay a penny (other than said CS) for the upbringing of their children. For any parent who sees their children more than 0% of the time, the guidelines are by definition unfair.

You can disagree with me on this one if you would like. But, the guidelines are vetted by a large body of experts and if there was a systemic issue with them it would be addressed.

I agree, the guidelines are fair, if you do not see your kids at all and do not contribute a penny more than CS to their upbringing. For parents in the real world, who actually care about their children (and contribute financially to their upbringing), the guidelines are manifestly unfair. Do you disagree with that assessment? Do you honestly believe that it is fair for a parent who sees their kid 37% of the time to be paying full guideline support?

Thirdly, if the financial advisor comes to the conclusion that the situation is unworkable, they can provide an affidavit in support of a motion for an adjustment to CS/SS on a motion to change due to material circumstances.

Do you have any case law where CS was reduced due to the advice of a financial advisor?

If the parent is under undue hardship and a qualified financial advisor (licensed and registered) can demonstrate to the court that the parent is unable to meet the expectations at no fault of their own it would be valuable evidence to the fact. Finally, a court will consider this in relation to CS and SS payments but, clear, cogent and relevant evidence from an expert would be advised.

Again, case law? In particular, one in which the payor was male and was paying full guideline support.

I disagree [with regards to ability to change CS situation]. There are tools, Rules and other means to fix the situation but, one has to take the right path to do so... Lamenting about it on a public message board really isn't helping the situation for the "payor".

Lamenting on public boards would be equally as effective as going through the courts. The only difference is that the public boards are cheaper and less time consuming.

[joanniefree]

Hopeless

50% of my take home salary goes to my ex to cover both spousal and child support. (My ex is not working).
My share does not even cover my monthly bills. I feel absolutely hopeless for the future - I am working to get further behind with no chance of ever catching up. Anyone else feel like that?

I've been feeling hopeless going on with a divorce for 5 years. If I include marriage, 20. I've been trying to get a job. It is not easy! Life is so complicated. Not too worry. You obviously sound like a responsible person. It sounds like you need to get your Financial Statement updated. Good-luck.

[DowntroddenDad]

Have I felt hopeless, of course I have.

My ex feigned illness when it came to the agreed upon time to go back to work (I believed her then), so I paid every bill, mortgage everything. She inherited money and half a house, which were of course exempt. She hid the money she inherited, did not use it to pay down debt or invest in RESPs for the kids.

And now half my net goes to her. She now has a job (thank you God), gets all the tax credits. I think in the end she has more income than I do when all is taken into account. Yet she tells the kids she is poor and I am fine.

I am living in a basement apartment. But other than a car loan, I have no debts. I still have a small RRSP. She has the equivalent in cash. I do have big vehicle expenses since I have a long commute. But no mortgage payments to make, no big bills to pay. I have to accept a lower standard of living. But I've done that.

[roxyroller71]

I feel really hopeless that I will ever get anything

I just wnat my kids expenses taken care of.
I receive 400 bucks garnished then I get a check for 600 or so.
So about a thousand bucks.
My ex has moved away, job promo, married, travels extensively, has 500G house 3 cars (one is a BMW), and a $10,000 motorcycle. Let not get into the wedding or the engagement ring. He makes over 150 a yr.
This money i receive is supposed to pay for everything!
including housing food child expenses , benefits, all the regular stuff thats kids need. but also a semi private school of 3600 per yr, Activities including violin and swim, and before and after school care.
I had case conference Since I have been chasing for this to be updated and paid.
In the case conference the judge focused on my expenses and not on my ex's fraudulent ones such as his moving and travel costs. The company pays for these and they aren't out of pocket. ( I know how he works)
The judge looked at my expenses sees that I have moved in w my family for their support, and starts grilling me! He refused to believe I am covering my sons costs on my own, regardless of he receipts and credit card/bank statements. He accused me of being paid cash by my family and that they are the ones covering the costs. And since this year I have paid them for before and after school of 160. With a receipt, that they really aren't taking the money.
Believe it or not, what was the excuse for the precocious years?

I budget and pinch an go without a damn winter coat, have ginch about 5 yrs old and I don't cover my sons costs?
How did it turn on me?

My only suggestion is to take some budgeting classes and financial skills building.
That's been my only saving grace. I have nothing owing outside my credit line and that's being paid off so I can purchase a home.
Budget and save and think of priorities.

This whole system sucks and it isn't fair in many ways. But I left without asking for anything except my sons things.
Does it matter that my ex was supportive of semi private school until the bill? Certainly was a great idea when we weren't in he best neighborhood with the crack apt next door.
And activities since I don't have a classical piano background like my ex what other reason would my son be in music? I pushed it? Or how about French? I'm not even French! Yet I get stuck with these bills!
Anyway,
I don't think I will ever have this really dealt with or even paid. I have trial April and I really feel that he will turn it around on me. As already seen.

It's been very stressful and I don't see any hope until my son is 18 yrs old. Maybe sooner If he is able to pipe up on his own.
Ten more yrs. and counting. It's a jail sentence.

[joanniefree]

I thought I had it bad. And yes, there is a God. My ex tried to kill me and he took my dog for a year. He sent me an email telling me that he had to put my dog to sleep. My lawyer is draining me and I have no money.

[Tayken]

Tayken,
All that you've mentioned... Financial advisors, taking action to correct situations, etc... all cost money! Utlimately it's the judges decision.

Conflict = money. It is a simple fact of Family Law.

There are a number of free resources for which one can leverage in the community at large for financial advice. If you have a bank account, you can meet with your account manager for free to discus your financial situation. The vast majority of these account managers are certified financial advisors. This advice is incorperated into your monthly banking transaction fees.

In my case I've got concrete proof that I paid for, I've hired lawyers that have cost me dearly and put me in the poor house yet I'm still where I was a year ago.

Conflict = cost.

The ex has not spent a penny on Financial advisors or lawyers and he's still holding all the money, hasn't had to pay a cent towards SS (which I'm entitled to), took away all 3 cars puting me in a desperate position, is in possession of the matrimonial house which is paid off while I'm in a rental...

1. Application to court seeking the remedies you require.
2. Remedy request should be the immediate sale and division of the matrimonial home.
3. Remedy request for temporary SS and provide the clear, cogent and relevant evidence that demonstrates your entitlement to SS.
4. Division of the matrimonial property (including the cars).

There are 8 police incident reports against him due to abuse (not physcial), he was asked to leave the house twice, he's been ordered to stay away from me....

Questions which I doubt you will answer.

1. Did a criminal charge get laid for any of the 8 times for which you requested the "assistance of the police".

2. Who made the "order" to stay away from you.

3. Why are you no longer residing in the matrimonial home which you have every right to do until such time a court orders otherwise?

4. Incident reports are "incident reports". They are not criminal convictions. They are a "peace officers" report to an incident. They are not "against" any party to the incident. They are at best a report provided by a "peace officer" on an event to which they were called to. In fact, when there are 8 incident reports and no criminal charges... It doesn't bold well in Family Court generally to the person who called the police 8 times.

yet we're still in court and the judge has yet to make a decision to even allow me half of what's in the accounts. I've proved financial hardship yet the judges refuse to make an order. What gives?

You didn't "prove" anything on the balance of probabilities maybe? The evidence was insufficient for a judge to make an order. Your "proof" was contained in a Case Conference Brief and you don't understand the Rules governing mediated "Conferences" with regards to the Family Law Rules?

We're now going to settlement conference in January. I've had to learn the Family Law Rules because I cannot afford a lawyer anymore.

Conflict = costs.

We are both under orders to provide a fair settlement offer, give our last paystub to each other on Jan. 9th. I've provided him with a fair offer all ready.

This is a technical order for Full and Frank financial disclosure in accordance with the Family Law Rules (Rule 13) and often is the result of a Case Conference, Settlement Conference or Trial Management Conference. A justice would order that both parties exchange offers to settle but, I have never seen an endorsement that this offer to settle should be "fair".

You clearly feel you are being treated unfairly.

I've discovered that he's asked his company to give him time off without pay and has been home for 3 weeks now. All in an effort to show a lower income.

Three weeks isn't going to impact his overall 3 year financial history that much and not much will churn on the judges decision for any support on someone taking 3 weeks off from work.

I do not recommend flying into court with this argument and that he is doing it for financial gain. Furthermore, how you present the evidence may appear to a justice you are attempting to demonstrate that the other party acting in a fraudulent manner.

So no, I disagree with you - there is NO justice in our courts. Tell me what I've not done to try and resolve this and end it fairly? I have no more money for legal help.

1. Contact Legal Aid Ontario and apply for Legal Aid. (Free)
2. Contact duety counsel at the court house for assistance in your matter. (Free)
3. Read up and educate yourself. (Free)
4. Purchase the book "Tug of War" for 28.50 at any chapters, read it (free) and read it again...

He cheated with several other women including a woman who was a friend of mine for 20 years! I

I truly hope you don't think this evidence has any weight in court. The judge does not care what happens between two consenting adults and extramarital affairs are not weighted by a justice in determining SS and equalization.

You are going to the Superior Court of Justice and not the "Moral Court of Justice".

Good Luck!
Tayken

[Tayken]

Do you have any case law where CS was reduced due to the advice of a financial advisor?

There is lots... Search "forensic accountant" and you will find it all. Also, if you search this very forum you will find jurisprudence to this fact.

Another good search is for "undue hardship" and "child support" on CanLII.

I trust that you are an able bodied person, are able to use a search engines on the internet as you are able to post to this forum.

CanLII

Google produces:

http://pswlaw.ca/2009/12/a-brief-not...ndue-hardship/

http://www.familylawcentre.com/05cas...hardships.html

From this very site:

http://www.ottawadivorce.com/pay_less_child_support.htm

Good Luck!
Tayken

[HammerDad]

This money i receive is supposed to pay for everything!
including housing food child expenses , benefits, all the regular stuff thats kids need. but also a semi private school of 3600 per yr, Activities including violin and swim, and before and after school care.

No. Child support is supposed to cover the payors proportional share of the expenses related to raising the child like the childs cost of the house, a vehicle that can carry the child(ren), the extra utility and food costs for the child.

But it actually goes a little further to try ensure that the standard of living of the child is maintained post divorce....which I think is a little rediculous because everyones lives have changed, so everyones standard of living has changed......

As for your specific expenses, some of those would be section 7 expenses, and not covered under child support (unless you were receiving substantial amounts of c/s). Swimming, unless it is like $200 a month, is unlikely s7.

The private school is $3600 a year, so approximately $300 a month. Assuming you make some money (I'll say $50k to make the math easy), his proportional share would be $225 and yours would be $75 per month....that is before any tax credits you may receive in relation to the schooling which may reduce the actual cost of the school.

If you are having issues paying for all these extra activities like violin or piano or french etc., maybe it is time to look into the need for these activities and if they can be stopped.

[SadAndTired]

What I don't understand (for Tayken and others) is how to reduce it if it is your ex causing the conflict. Yes, I agree, conflict = costs.

But my ex refuses to entertain offers. My ex has skipped all negotiations and went right to a court application. I would love to work it out but he doesn't want to believing that a judge will rule in his favour about money. (We agree about access.)

He likes to argue and yell and call me up to lie to me.

I can ignore the emotional bs but eventually a court application must be addressed.

The person who needs to know that conflict = money is the person creating the conflict. Unfortunately, at some point, a response and standing up for your own rights is needed and legal representation is the best way to do that for some.