Low cost seperation help

[dsrtrat]

I am new to the forum and soon to be newly seperated.

We both (soon to be ex and myself) agree that making the lawyers rich is not our goal. I think we are both sensible enough to settle things at the kitchen table.

My question is, what is the cheapest way to do this without making mistakes that will bite us down the road? We have a good idea of who is getting what but need some legal advice on where to start. We will need new mortgages, a seperation agreement that includes division of assets, childcare and support, spousal support and yadda yadda yadda.

Where do you start?

[Mess]

Both of you read Surviving your Divorce.

Then read it again, make notes along the way for each chapter. If something doesn't apply to you, note why. If it does apply to you, note what you think.

Sit down and discuss each other's notes.

Look at this, Equalization Spreadsheet.

I was going to send you to "My support calculator" but the website is down. Maybe it will work tomorrow. My Support Calculator.

Support Calculator is now working again.

[billm]

You should start here - so good job!

You should understand the basic concepts. Ultimately you can decide to any agreement you want (though aspects of it may be overturned if one of you changes their mind later - such as non standard child support).

So my view of 'by the book' for married couples with children (and assuming you had nothing when you met).

1. Equalization - you both walk away with the same net worth - does not matter who keeps what, as long as you have the same net worth - this means including everything (RRSP, pension, debts, credit cards, cash, assets, houses, everything).
2. Child access - you both live with the kids equally and neither parent is designated 'primary'. A good way to do it is '2/2/3' schedule (Mon/Tues - mom, Wed/Thurs - dad, alternate weekends).
3. Child Support - Use current income to lookup amount in CS tables. Subtract difference and greater income earner pays the other the difference (the 'offset method'). This is updated yearly according to income July 1 based on previous year tax return. Work together to share expenses not associated specifically with one home such as sports, medical, clothing, post secondary.
4. Spousal Support - What ever makes sense and whatever you agree to. You can use the SSAG as a guideline. See MySupportCalculator.ca
5. You don't move out until you have a signed separation agreement that states this.
6. You both get your own lawyer to give you ILA Independent Legal Advice. You DO NOT let the lawyers take over - they work for you! You adjust the separation agreement according to their advice.
7. You sign it with witnesses etc.
8. You live happily ever after.

Simple.

[arabian]

Keep friends, family members and girlfriends/boyfriends out of everything. If you need someone else's opinion make sure the people you turn to have nothing to gain/lose by your decisions. Get professional counselling or borrow a dog to walk. DO NOT get other people involved.

Good luck and hope you have happy trails ahead of you.

[dinkyface]

Keep the TRUST between yourselves. That makes everything possible.

Aside from equalization, which is one once, then enables you to live financially separate, realize that all decisions on shared parenting can be changed down the road as needed.

Acknowledge the possibility of future partners, and that they will take on a parenting role. Sometimes it all goes off the rails when someone new enters the picture: **it's a STRANGER!!!** <--- Trust in your partner's judgment.

Acknowledge that each of you will be parenting INDEPENDENTLY i.e. there will be many details not shared with the other. This can be a BIG mental adjustment. <--- Trust in your partner's judgment.

With shared custody, you both will be sharing in the expenses. ... discuss how this will work i.e. who buys the clothes, major sporting gear, electronics, and school supplies? What level of 'accounting' do you need to check that you are both contributing your proper share?

Are there any areas where you have fundamental differences in parenting approach? Acknowledge these up front, and as much as possible, agree that you will each do your own thing in your own household.

The following is a guide for developing a very detailed sample parenting plan - these would be good discussion points:
http://www.albertacourts.ab.ca/cs/fa...ce/CTS0907.pdf

[dsrtrat]

Thanks fo rthe info folks.

We are looking at the assets right now. I have agreed to move out of the house once we are seperated for the kids sake. We have two girls that will want to spend more time with their mom than me. She will be primary but were not set on the ratio yet. I know it has to 60/40 minimum for the CS to be looked at in a shared custody.

I will read those links and go from there. KNowing that I am going to need a house in the near future, we will have to agree on an amount for our current home's value and get to work setting up new mortgages so I can get shopping.

Feeling a little overwhelemd right now. Luckily, we know this is for the best and have no illusion's that it will be easy but we are both against filling the pockets of two lawyers at the expense of our own and kid's financial future.

I have a question about gifts. For the last 10 years, her parents, my parents and even my wife have always given me cash. I know it sounds cold but I was always looking for specialty tools that they could not buy. Any money she received she used for stuff like braces on her teeth. The end result is I have a bunch of used tools that were purchased with gift money and she has a straight smile. Are my items considered gifts that I received and not part of the the equalization process?


cheers.

[dinkyface]

I have agreed to move out of the house once we are seperated for the kids sake. We have two girls that will want to spend more time with their mom than me.

Please re-examine what you believe in your value as a dad.

This is the ONE thing that will be difficult to change down the road, or even tomorrow, now you have discussed and verbally agreed.

Have a look at the CS guidelines, and see how the numbers work out for you and her if you are fully involved with say 35% time, are active with the kids, maintain a home for them, taking them on vacations ... and are paying the table amounts. Really, the costs in your 2 households are going to be similar (except maybe she does all the clothes buying - which will be maybe 10-15% of your CS payment?)

Re the tools/dentistry - it is unlikely that the 'kijiji' value (that's what you should use for comparing $'s) of these is more than a few thousand ... and she has a smile that lasts a lifetime. If this becomes an argument, you are likely in for more trouble with other stuff. But, the general rule is that gifts *from 3rd parties* are excluded from the assets to be divided.

I'm assuming that you meant 'the giving of cash as presents' was cold? Not your approach to splitting them?

[billm]

Keep friends, family members and girlfriends/boyfriends out of everything. If you need someone else's opinion make sure the people you turn to have nothing to gain/lose by your decisions. Get professional counselling or borrow a dog to walk. DO NOT get other people involved.

Good luck and hope you have happy trails ahead of you.

Standard advice from arabian - she has issues with other people influencing her ex - take with a (large) grain of salt.

[billm]

...
I have a question about gifts. For the last 10 years, her parents, my parents and even my wife have always given me cash. I know it sounds cold but I was always looking for specialty tools that they could not buy. Any money she received she used for stuff like braces on her teeth. The end result is I have a bunch of used tools that were purchased with gift money and she has a straight smile. Are my items considered gifts that I received and not part of the the equalization process?


cheers.

They are part of equalization - you are correct, it does sound cold and is not reasonable - marriage is an emotional AND financial agreement - split all things 50/50

[standing on the sidelines]

would they be considering the money was a gift to one person and not to them as a couple?? If he bought something with the money that was for his use alone would that not be cosidered excluded as compared to a new dining room set that they both used??

[murphyslaw]

But Arabian is correct about this.Often when marriages hit the rocks and people outside become involved ,they try to push their agendas onto your divorce.If they had a bad divorce they will convince you to destroy your ex(not that it helps them but because they are indenial over their portion of blame in their own marriage).Then some will say "i never liked her etc,why are you giving her anything"...this may even include stuff that wasn't your to begin with.

BUT remember this-if you start taking bad advice and dragging others into it ,your ex will be threatened and will look to people to back her too.Soon you will have a full out war with your kids in the middle of it,costing both of you a fortune and the only benefit being is that the assholes who pushed you down the wrong track ,have suffered nothing whatsoever.Opinions are like assholes ,everyone has one. Be very careful whose advice you take.
On a lighter note it is refreshing to hear someone with a logical thought out game plan and a genuine concern for their family.I really do hope this goes well for you.

[blinkandimgone]

I would tend to disagree. I find Bill's posts quite balanced and unbiased. He'll call you on your shit whether you're a guy or a gal.

[dsrtrat]

Just curious as to where to start? I will get the surviving divorce book but it is not in my hands right now. Assuming we can get a deal done at the kitchen table, we still have questions and will need guidance. Is there someone who can help without being a typical manipulative asshole lawyer that will attempt to draw us into a costly war? What do people do when they want to settle without a war and a huge lawyer bill but have many questions?

[blinkandimgone]

If you're looking at hammering out a seperation agreement between the two of you, each of you should sit down and outline what you want to see happen and your expectations, then see how far apart you are on your issues and how much you can move towards agreeing on things on your own before paying someone to help you get there. There are some really great sample seperation agreements out there that can help you get started and identify what areas need to be looked at:

Checklist for separation agreements in Canada

Ontario Divorce and Family Law

Ontario property divorce laws

Child support Canada

Ontario Spousal Support (Alimony) Menu

Those links should help you get started.

[FightingForFamily]

Talk to a mediator who is a family law lawyer. They will help you enter an agreement that respects the law and reflects both people.

It's much cheaper than retaining lawyers to negotiate/escalate but it will still cost a bit. A typical separation agreement costs around $1500-2000 to be drafted. You sit down with the mediator to help work out the details you want and they will draft the resulting agreement for you.