No help from the CAS

[billiechic]

It's been a while, but unfortunately I am back.

About a month ago my daughter (5) told me that her dad was spanking her. What alarmed me was when I asked her where daddy spanked her, she said "hit hit me in the face) and then mocked slapping her cheek. I asked her where else, and she pointed to 8-10 other places on her body (not just hands and bum). Anyway, the details came out a little more, but I am 100% certain that what she told me was true. He had spanked her twice before (that I know of), and the first time she had just turned 2.

I didn't know what to do, given that her dad and I cannot communicate and it had been an abusive relationship. I couldn"t bring it up, he would only deny it and the little cooperation we had would go down the drain. So I called CAS.

They investigated (in their slow fashion) and I was just told that he came into their office on Monday. No home visit (they visited my home). He denied ever hitting her, even though the worker told me that my daughter had told her the same things I reported. She said we have a communication issue and that we need to make room for misunderstandings. UMMM, how is my daughter being hit all over her body, WHILE already in time out, a communication mishap?

Unfortunately, Because I didnt report my abuse to the police, nobody believed me. Now I report my daughter's abuse (it is abuse, isn't it?) and they don't even believe a little girl. My ex is so good at playing "Mr Nice Guy" that they are only "going to follow up" and didn't even make recommendations for him to seek counselling or parenting class. He is Spanking her out of frustration, and hitting her repeatedly!

I don't know what my options are here. I asked if they have any mediation services, as I know any co-operation from him is out the window. Nothing.

More importantly, I don't think this person was a social worker, and has no idea what an abuser looks like and how easily he can lie. I'm not trying to get him in trouble, I just want her to be safe, and for him to stop letting his frustration take over when she misbehaves. Is there anything I can do to get a qualified person on the case, to get them to do a home visit with him and to find out the truth?

Please help, I am quite upset and lost

[Mess]

The best sequence of events would have been to take her to the doctor. Have her make the statements to the doctor and ask the doctor to check for injuries (which is pretty transparent but we are playing the system here.)

When your daughter makes the statement to the doctor, the doctor is obligated to make the report to the CAS. If it were me, I'd mention to the doctor that you want them to follow up in this way.

I would feel that the CAS would follow up more thoroughly if they get the report from a doctor or teacher, at least in that they did SFA with your report.

At least it will be documented by the doctor if it happens again and you need to follow up and say this is the second time, etc. If the CAS isn't doing anything, asking for a report will probably not help.

[billiechic]

Thanks. That is a much better idea. I didn't think of it though becasue there were no injuries. I don't even know exactly when it happened, becasue she told my mom the weekend before that daddy spanked her. It could have been one time, or going on for months, though what she has said implies at least a few times.

I will definitely take her to the doctor next time (hopefully there wont be a need to) but in the meantime any ideas for how to talk to her about all this? she is uncomfortable to say the least, but I want her to know that she should still tell me when something bad happens, even if daddy says not to. How do I tell her without pressuring her? I don't want her to feel like she is betraying her dad (guilty). He does love her, he just seems to forget that when it comes to hating/resenting me

[Tayken]

It's been a while, but unfortunately I am back.

About a month ago my daughter (5) told me that her dad was spanking her. What alarmed me was when I asked her where daddy spanked her, she said "hit hit me in the face) and then mocked slapping her cheek. I asked her where else, and she pointed to 8-10 other places on her body (not just hands and bum).

A child of 5 in a separated family can make up all sorts of things and interpret things. No court (or CAS) is going to do anything unless your daughter consistently raises these issues. Be varey careful with alleging this as if the matter is properly clinically investigated and the investigator doesn't feel the incident occured you will be labled as someone who makes false allegations of child abuse.

Anyway, the details came out a little more, but I am 100% certain that what she told me was true. He had spanked her twice before (that I know of), and the first time she had just turned 2.

No one loses custody of their children for spanking them. CAS is too involved with serious abuse and/or neglect and/or maltreatment issues to investigate spanking. Unless your daughter demonstrates a post-traumatic scar or physical signs of abuse, there isn't much CAS can do.

I didn't know what to do, given that her dad and I cannot communicate and it had been an abusive relationship. I couldn"t bring it up, he would only deny it and the little cooperation we had would go down the drain. So I called CAS.

This is a very high-conflict thing to do. CAS should not be miss used.

They investigated (in their slow fashion) and I was just told that he came into their office on Monday. No home visit (they visited my home). He denied ever hitting her, even though the worker told me that my daughter had told her the same things I reported.

When asked a 5 year old will tell you they are a super hero and have magical powers and can fly. Furthermore, as the originator of the complaint CAS already walks into the situation under suspicion.

She said we have a communication issue and that we need to make room for misunderstandings.

What the CAS worker was trying to say politely was.

1. Stop projecting your image of the other parent on the situation.
2. Stop depending on emotional reasoning and your 5 year old child to tell you what went on and what happened.
3. Stop raising unsubstantiated claims of child abuse against the other parent and work on your own emotional problems.

UMMM, how is my daughter being hit all over her body, WHILE already in time out, a communication mishap?

You are gathering evidence from a 5 year old. It doesn't reflect well on you that you just called CAS to report what a 5 year old told you. Unless there was physical evidence (bruises and other marks) you could have coached your daughter to do this. Not saying you did. Just that is how CAS also investigates matters.

Unfortunately, Because I didnt report my abuse to the police, nobody believed me.

Have you ever sought psychotherapy for the "abuse" you are claiming. A true victim of domestic violence (intimate partner abuse) often has long standing post-traumatic issues as a result of the abuse. If you claim you are a victim of abuse then you should have the resulting issues that come with being a victim of abuse. You can talk to your family doctor and get a referral to a psychiatrist that can test for the impact of the abuse. There are a pile of domestic violence screening tools they will apply and you will have to do a series of mental health tests.

You can gather the evidence to the impact of the abuse that was dealt on you and there are clinicians who can help you get over the trauma of abuse.

But, if you don't seek help for the trauma, never sought the police, and still don't seek help for the abuse... People start to wonder what is true and what is false (or based on emotional facts).

Now I report my daughter's abuse (it is abuse, isn't it?) and they don't even believe a little girl.

It isn't abuse until a finding of abuse is made and criminal charges are laid and a trial is completed in the matter. It is an "allegation of abuse" and we live in Canada... Innocent until proven guilty.

My ex is so good at playing "Mr Nice Guy" that they are only "going to follow up" and didn't even make recommendations for him to seek counselling or parenting class. He is Spanking her out of frustration, and hitting her repeatedly!

This is your image of the other parent projected through your emotional state. You have built an image of him, you are probably arguing with this fantasy person, and may even believe that he is in fact abusive. Have you ever considered he is a nice guy? Have you ever considered he may have changed? Or do you believe people cannot change?

Why would he have to go to parenting classes based on your allegations which have be found to be untrue?

I don't know what my options are here. I asked if they have any mediation services, as I know any co-operation from him is out the window. Nothing.

Move on and be happy that the CAS didn't find any abuse was conducted and that your daughter may have some issues that need to be addressed. Request the other parent to consent to have your daughter talk to a professional to help her. If that professional feels your daughter is truly being abused they are required to report it.

More importantly, I don't think this person was a social worker, and has no idea what an abuser looks like and how easily he can lie.

I wouldn't disagree that Social Workers as clinicians are not trained properly in identifying potentially Axis II disordered people.

I'm not trying to get him in trouble, I just want her to be safe, and for him to stop letting his frustration take over when she misbehaves. Is there anything I can do to get a qualified person on the case, to get them to do a home visit with him and to find out the truth?

Section 30 Custody and Access evaluation if you have the finances for it.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[billiechic]

[quote=Tayken;80310]A child of 5 in a separated family can make up all sorts of things and interpret things.

My daughter is an only child

No court (or CAS) is going to do anything unless your daughter consistently raises these issues.
really? they investigated didn"t they? and this is the 4th time they have been involved, 2nd time this year



No one loses custody of their children for spanking them. Did I say this was my intention? My intention was clearly to have it taken seriously, not to have custody changed, especially since I AGREED to 50/50!


This is a very high-conflict thing to do. CAS should not be miss used. they weren"t. their job is to investigate every concern, if they feel it is valid, and it was. and they are following up.



When asked a 5 year old will tell you they are a super hero and have magical powers and can fly. Furthermore, as the originator of the complaint CAS already walks into the situation under suspicion. Right, so does that mean we should suspect that everything that out 5 year olds say is fantasy? I think not.
Suspicion in this case would be based also on the past, which clearly show there is a history of abuse.


What the CAS worker was trying to say politely was.

1. Stop projecting your image of the other parent on the situation.
2. Stop depending on emotional reasoning and your 5 year old child to tell you what went on and what happened.
3. Stop raising unsubstantiated claims of child abuse against the other parent and work on your own emotional problems.

No, this is what you are projecting onto this situation, based on the above few posts. If you honestly wanted to provide proper advice, you would have done a search on my username and come up with thousands of posts and a history that shows that nothing here is likely unsubstantiated.

You are gathering evidence from a 5 year old. It doesn't reflect well on you that you just called CAS to report what a 5 year old told you. Unless there was physical evidence (bruises and other marks) you could have coached your daughter to do this. Not saying you did. Just that is how CAS also investigates matters.

So at what age should you start taking your child's word seriously?

Yes, I the mother reported it. I am LEGALLY required to do that.

No, there wasn"t physical evidence, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. And if you read my above posts, you would see that what I think happened was that he got frustrated and hit/spanked her way more than he should have. that is how child abuse starts, and the time to intervene is now, before he loses his ability to control it and his remorse.

Have you ever sought psychotherapy for the "abuse" you are claiming. AGAIN...READ my HISTORY of POSTS!!! of course I did, and I've FORGIVEN him for that! But he has a history of abuse, and most child abusers START as partner abusers!
A true victim of domestic violence (intimate partner abuse) often has long standing post-traumatic issues as a result of the abuse. If you claim you are a victim of abuse then you should have the resulting issues that come with being a victim of abuse. You can talk to your family doctor and get a referral to a psychiatrist that can test for the impact of the abuse. There are a pile of domestic violence screening tools they will apply and you will have to do a series of mental health tests.

You can gather the evidence to the impact of the abuse that was dealt on you and there are clinicians who can help you get over the trauma of abuse.

But, if you don't seek help for the trauma, never sought the police, and still don't seek help for the abuse... People start to wonder what is true and what is false (or based on emotional facts).

WOOW...I just cant respond...it is the victim"s fault for not reporting to the police, for being scared to ask for help, and the kicker...

It isn't abuse until a finding of abuse is made and criminal charges are laid and a trial is completed in the matter. It is an "allegation of abuse" and we live in Canada... Innocent until proven guilty.

Really...tell that to my friend when she was beaten black and blue...its not abuse until there's a conviction! SWEET!

FYI: I cut the rest out because I couldn't be bothered to read you uninformed dribble. I suggest that if you are going to offer advice on here that you ask questions of the poster before jumping to conclusions, or at least do a quick username search to see the jist of their posts, history. Sheesh..what is this board coming too??

[Mess]

Tayken, if a five year old reported being hit to a kindergarten teacher, a daycare teacher or a physician, it would be reported to the CAS, it is required by law that reports be made.

Billie did exactly as she should have. If it continues to occur, then there is already a report about previous instances, so a pattern can be seen.

I don't know what the threshold is for the CAS to take any action, but the information should be reported and should be on file. If it gets worse, you would be the first to point out that it should have been reported at the time. I know this because you are saying the same thing about abuse that Billie was on the receiving end of.

Spanking is fun activity between consenting adults. Leave the chldren out of it.

[Mess]

Create a Canada fit for Children by Toronto Public Health

Section 43 of the Criminal Code of Canada allows physical punishment of children. This "spanking law" hinders education on positive and effective discipline. Many organizations serving children and families would like to see the end of this outdated law and are calling on the federal government to take action.

A national survey found that only a minority of Canadians believe that physical punishment is allowed by law. Therefore, ending section 43 would be consistent with or clarify the beliefs of many Canadians. Repeal of section 43 would also:

• reinforce the government's own efforts to eliminate physical punishment.
• support the positive parenting initiatives of hundreds of Canadian professional organizations.
• uphold the principles of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and the recommendation of the U.N. monitoring committee that Canada eliminate this defence from the Criminal Code.
• acknowledge the recommendation of Canada's Senate Committee on Human Rights to repeal section 43 found in the Children: The Silenced Voices report
• be consistent with international developments to eliminate physical punishment of children, our most vulnerable citizens

• Supreme Court Decision on Section 43
  
  In January 2004, the Supreme Court of Canada decided that:

  • schoolteachers may no longer use section 43 to justify physical punishment
  • parents and persons acting in the place of parents may use physical punishment, but subject to the following conditions:
    • the child is between 2 and 12 years of age,
    • the child is capable of learning from the punishment,
    • the force is minor and of a transitory and trifling nature,
    • the punishment does not involve objects or blows or slaps to the head,
    • the force is not degrading, inhuman or harmful, and
    • the punishment is not the result of the caregiver's "frustration, loss of temper or abusive personality."
    • The Supreme Court also ruled that the seriousness of the child's misbehaviour is not relevant in judging the "reasonableness" of the force used.

  A minority of the Supreme Court disagreed with this judgement and held that section 43 violates the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

[fireweb13]

Spanking is fun activity between consenting adults. Leave the chldren out of it.

It sure is Mess..

[billiechic]

according to Mess' link..he broke the law.
And I followed it by reporting the spanking.

FYI, I did weigh the consequences before calling. I know they could think I coached her, that I was lying, "stirring the pot", or causing trouble for my ex.

I know that the outcome is unlikely to be anything helpful. I hoped for him to be recommended for counselling, or parenting class. I knew it would throw out whatever progress towards cooperation that we had made, and that I would be forced to go to court for my divorce, which could have been settled outside of it, had I not called.

But at what price? The possibility that my child may continue to be punished unfairly, possibly extensively, and essentially turn my back and hope it would just "go away". What kind of mother would I be if I did that?

Anyone out there still think I did the wrong thing?

[NBDad]

You can't fix stupid unfortunately. You did the proper thing by reporting your concerns. If you could speak with the ex, it might have been easier to send him and email or something first, but in high conflict situations that's not always going to be possible.

I don't know what the threshold is for the CAS to take any action, but the information should be reported and should be on file. If it gets worse, you would be the first to point out that it should have been reported at the time. I know this because you are saying the same thing about abuse that Billie was on the receiving end of.

You want the threshold legally or what really happens? Legally they are mandated to investigate reports of ANY abuse. In reality, when it's the other parent reporting it, it tends to be brushed off and/or ignored. I have first hand experience with this. It literally took over a year, and the ex's LANDLADY reporting her to CAS for them to bother to investigate. Mind you, I had been diligently reporting those same issues, for the preceding 10 months.

Keep reporting it. Involve the family doctor. Been there, done that. It sucks having to do appointments for EVERY little thing, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Anyone else do 7 hours visits to the ER for a bum rash?

[winterwolf7]

CAS tends to take very seriously concerns or incidents reported by doctors, police and sometimes teachers. I've never seen them do very much when regular citizens report things.

[billiechic]

thanks NBDad for your support. He has "retaliated" and is working on filing a motion to change. All because his WCB went from 100% to 75% and so I owe him "more CS"!

[Tayken]

My daughter is an only child

By responding in red you are demonstrating frustration and anger. I do not see the relevance on a child being an only child in this matter.

really? they investigated didn"t they? and this is the 4th time they have been involved, 2nd time this year

They are required by law to investigate any complaint made no matter how irrelivant they are. They are required to by law.

The constant involvement of CAS to resolve matters can reflect incredibly negatively on the parent who continually raises allegations where no finding is found to their complaints. Be very careful on how you try to "leverage" the CAS in these matters. It can backfire on you and you may find them identifying you as a high-conflict individual.

Did I say this was my intention? My intention was clearly to have it taken seriously, not to have custody changed, especially since I AGREED to 50/50!

The purpose of CAS is to investigate matters of abuse not to control parents and how they discipline their children. They are not a dispute resolution service, they are an investigation organization.

they weren"t. their job is to investigate every concern, if they feel it is valid, and it was. and they are following up.

They are required under their mandate to investigate all issues raised. Don't take their investigation as a guarantee you are correct in your assumptions of abuse.

Right, so does that mean we should suspect that everything that out 5 year olds say is fantasy? I think not.
Suspicion in this case would be based also on the past, which clearly show there is a history of abuse.

1. You agreed to 50-50 and there is a history of abuse? Abuse needs more than allegations from a parent... it needs a finding by police, CAS or a judge.
2. Children are not adults and CAS is very good at investigating matters of abuse. There are proceedures for investigating this and they will follow them.
3. CAS is independent of your feelings.

No, this is what you are projecting onto this situation, based on the above few posts. If you honestly wanted to provide proper advice, you would have done a search on my username and come up with thousands of posts and a history that shows that nothing here is likely unsubstantiated.

1. This is just advice. How you react, the colour of font you use, and the words you use to respond are within your control not mine.

2. I have read your correspondence and have to say without reading the orders of the court and the findings regarding your statements, I cannot pass judgment on anything you provide to a public forum.

So at what age should you start taking your child's word seriously?

Let CAS do their investigation. Provide them the cogent evidence for them to conduct their investigation.

Yes, I the mother reported it. I am LEGALLY required to do that.

I am just warning you that the constant involvement of CAS in matters can reflect negatively on you. Especially if matters are pending trial.

No, there wasn"t physical evidence, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. And if you read my above posts, you would see that what I think happened was that he got frustrated and hit/spanked her way more than he should have. that is how child abuse starts, and the time to intervene is now, before he loses his ability to control it and his remorse.

You are anticipating that he is going to become a child abuser. Judges, CAS and the law does not operate on emotional beliefs/facts. They operate on cogent evidence.

AGAIN...READ my HISTORY of POSTS!!! of course I did, and I've FORGIVEN him for that! But he has a history of abuse, and most child abusers START as partner abusers!

Yet you have agreed to 50-50. It doesn't really fit well with what you are claiming. If there was a finding of abuse by a professional then, why would you agree to 50-50?

WOOW...I just cant respond...it is the victim"s fault for not reporting to the police, for being scared to ask for help, and the kicker...

False allegations of domestic violence is a form of psychological abuse. It happens quite often. That is why there are laws in place to insure allegations are not thrown around in affidavits and why judges decide on matters regarding children when there is abuse. The "best interests" test in the CLRA clearly outlines this.

Really...tell that to my friend when she was beaten black and blue...its not abuse until there's a conviction! SWEET!

You are clearly upset. It is unfortunate you have to write in red and in caps which often represents anger. The objective is not to annoy you or upset you. Just provide a perspective. If your friend was abused, I suggest filiing criminal charges and seeking a protective order.

FYI: I cut the rest out because I couldn't be bothered to read you uninformed dribble. I suggest that if you are going to offer advice on here that you ask questions of the poster before jumping to conclusions, or at least do a quick username search to see the jist of their posts, history. Sheesh..what is this board coming too??

It is again rather unfortunate that you turn to name calling. It doesn't demonstrate your emotional state very well in my opinion. You are clearly upset with how your matrimonial dispute has progressed.

I actually track through an expert system the allegations being posted by the top posters and cross reference their postings to an emotional pattern system for social media developed by a university in Israel. So, in the click of a button I can cross reference entire threads against standard patterns of emotions for any poster on the site.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[Kimberley]

By responding in red, she is trying to separate the colours between your portions of the post, and her responses to you...

Eye Dee Ten Tee

[Tayken]

I agree, I think it is easier than quoting, I do it too sometimes especially in private messaging.

BTW maybe Billiechic got upset that Tayken quoted her using "pumpkin mama" instead of "billiechic" user name but knowing Tayken I bet he did it accidentally.

Woops. Did I do that? That would have been an accident. Double checking. Some times I forget to clear the cut-and-paste cache and it slips in past []quote tags.

It can create a nightmare in the message board.

I am not a fan of "red" quotes. Blue is more appropriate to separate out who wrote what. Or purple. The colour red carries a lot of feeling and generally not good ones.

Good Luck!
Tayken