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Support: according to my narcissistic EX

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  • hadenough
    replied
    That is just AWFUL! Well, I will know which way this is headed next week. Dumb and Dumber have to respond to cost submissions (35g!!) and we'll see where we land. I'm so tired of it all. Yeahhh- what a bargoon your X is offering you. Can't believe your not snapping that up! What an ass! So, just out of curiosity: why is he wanting to opt out of FRO so badly? I'm going to be none too pleased if this goes to an appeal. He truly has no grounds. The judgment is 23 pages with numerous Supreme Court of Canada Case Law references. That, and he LIED like there was no tomorrow over and over again. There is no error whatsoever in how the "law" was applied. If anything: he's lucky, as a more seasoned judge (ours was a newbie) would have been a lot worse on/for him. Its so true. This never ends. I'm finding it hard to "move on" with my life. My life has been Court for four years. Before that, it was w/that maniac. What life?!? I need to create a new one.. A new "me" - easier said than done. Thank you for the info you shared.

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  • TLCRN
    replied
    As explained at the trial when my ex argued he was not gong to pay CS, post secondary education payments calculated by the Judge, mentionning "appealing" the decision, the Judge saidan "appeal is costly, will be incuring more costs, and in order to appeal one has to have good reasons for doing so, as one cannot appeal because they don't like the decision made, facts and proof are needed whilch were presented at a trial..the purpose of a trial.
    hadenough: you right it is a circus....and a waiting game!
    As a said in other post, we go to trial, and thnk or suppose to think it's over as there are "final orders", but no it's not when a party wishes to "ignore the Court Order".
    After a lengthly, stressfull trial being self represented and final Orders in place, my ex has decided to make an "offer to settle", knowing he is in Breach of the Order. Without going into details, he first wants me to agree to withdraw from the FRO although there are arrears; the rest is not even worth mentionning as it's not even half of the amount ordered.

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  • hadenough
    replied
    So after 3 yrs waiting for Trial, 5 months waiting for a reserved judgment - I discover that the "costs" issue (I was the successful party) is part of the final order so NOW: I'm waiting for ex's lawyer to respond to the cost submissions. Once he (eventually does), and he's taking his time: the Judge has to incorporate that into the final drafted order. Its been 2 months since the "decision" re: CS and SS was released. Now add at least another month, and then when it gets to the FRO, they will take 6-12 weeks. As well, my lawyer and I are speculating that the ex and his lawyer will try to appeal the SS aspect of the existing order. Ex's income was imputed, he lied multiple times at Trial (and got caught in each one) and the disclosure he did provide was inadequate. "Woefully inadequate" as a matter of fact. The Judge's order made it clear that ex has "serious credibility issues." I'll know next week where this is all heading. My understanding, unless I've got it wrong: is that appeal or no appeal, the existing order stands and already ex has short-paid for 2 months. He's in breach of the order, right out of the gate. Does the Court care? re: the Breach? Answer: NO. It's for FRO to deal w/his arrears etc once they become involved. If ex appeals, I will then be forced to be the "respondent" and ex will be the applicant appellant. An appeal court hears matters where the previous Judge may have applied the Law incorrectly to his/her decision. That is not the case with the decision released in my matter. What a circus. It is impossible to truly get out of the court machine and the whole thing makes me sick. On the weekend ex chuckled to child "your mother doesn't realize that if I go to jail, I won't have to pay HER anything." Yes what an amazing thought process. I'm sure his wife w/2 children (with him) under 21 months of age, would really love to hear that. I don't talk to ex and didn't want to comment (to him) on above ludicrous comment made to our child, and some others he's made since the decision was released. The 35k in costs likely has him feeling pretty unwell. As for the possible "appeal" - my take is, that the existing order (amt) stands and if he chooses to not pay the full amount, he's just digging himself in deeper. Then he will lose at his appeal, incur more "costs" and still owe whatever he's decided not to pay, in the interim.

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  • ddol1
    replied
    CSA Angel
    I think you hit this nail right on. Even if some couples do not make it right to court there is the ffew where abuse, threats, or even continued head games, or just nonn payments (maybe a few needs to increase to many??) would continue on for years.

    For this alone the FRO principle is the right one but even from my personal perspective who would want the buffer, the court FRO system is distorted and a completely different setup needs to happen. Different government body, management, perhaps a strong watchdog to keep things in check - flush out the stupidity and insert people who care about families, care to do what is right and stop the abuse of power they appear to use over and over.

    As far as payments before FRO processes an order - would not a payor trying to do the right thing be covered if a proof of payment is retained? Even better perhaps is the recipient signing a detailed reciept for funds recieved? Sometimes the recipient just needs the money (for a ton of reasons) to stop eviction, eat, medicine??? We are getting divorced but it seams some would think we must also lose our humanity or compassion in doing so?

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  • TLCRN
    replied
    Support: according to my narcissistic EX

    Originally posted by CSAngel View Post
    I think you're right on that - however, chances are that if you've been through court then the parties are not agreeable and the chance of getting both to consent to NOT going through FRO would be slim to none.
    I totally agree with you. Most couple who get along and consent, are usually not in Court dealing with support. Most Judges will write in court orders for payments to go to FRO, with most legal counsels agreeing especially if representing the recipient. It is very difficult to obtain support payments and arrears from the payor without having to involve the Courts, and FRO. We all know FRO is far from being perfect!

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  • hadenough
    replied
    Yes Hammerdad: I was vague. I should have been more concise. Agreed

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  • hadenough
    replied
    I believe the Ontario Ombudsman would field/review any FRO-related concerns. I will definitely be jumping on any bandwagon I can if there is a problem for me (with FRO). I have a couple of friends who recv their CS payments through the FRO and they are, for the most part, satisfied. There have been a couple of issues, but nothing that wasn't dealt with once it was brought to their attention. I hate hearing that the FRO is not all that I'd heard about it. I really have no other hope for enforcement.

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  • HammerDad
    replied
    Originally posted by hadenough View Post
    Hello Hammerdad: yes. That's true. Individuals CAN file their domestic contracts. My point was that any order from Trial or Pre-trial done through court/lawyers resulting in an ORDER, goes to FRO. Domestic contracts without counsel can be submitted as far as I know yes, but that would mean the party/parties personally sent the "agreement" to the FRO. In my case: I had trial. There was a reserved judgment. That judgment was released in Sept. It is the Judge's Final Order. All 23 glorious pages of it. Signed and Sealed.
    Alright, but you have to be more concise. You stated:

    [/quote] or a separation agreement that's been hammered out. [/quote]

    Which was what I was pointing out as incorrect as they are not automatically registered with FRO even if they are registered with the courts.

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  • hadenough
    replied
    Hello Hammerdad: yes. That's true. Individuals CAN file their domestic contracts. My point was that any order from Trial or Pre-trial done through court/lawyers resulting in an ORDER, goes to FRO. Domestic contracts without counsel can be submitted as far as I know yes, but that would mean the party/parties personally sent the "agreement" to the FRO. In my case: I had trial. There was a reserved judgment. That judgment was released in Sept. It is the Judge's Final Order. All 23 glorious pages of it. Signed and Sealed.

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  • hadenough
    replied
    It sucks to hear that FRO can be so inept. Its such an important service and to know it is so flawed is truly upsetting. My situation IS very high conflict. I cannot imagine having to deal with him directly. I will have to take my chances with the FRO as the alternative, for me is far far worse. My ex is controlling and abusive. We cannot speak to eachother at all and it's best that way. I'm hoping FRO will be the best route for me. I have no other option.

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  • HammerDad
    replied
    Originally posted by hadenough View Post
    The FRO is automatic once there's an order. Whether its by a judge or a separation agreement that's been hammered out. ..
    Incorrect. Straight from the FRO website:

    When an Ontario court makes a support order, it also issues a support deduction order. The support deduction order is sent to the FRO and is automatically registered.

    When a domestic contract has been filed with the court, the payor or recipient may choose to register it with the FRO.

    To register a domestic contract with the FRO you must:

    •File the domestic contract, or paternity agreement, with the Ontario Court of Justice or Superior Court of Justice (Family Court) along with an Affidavit for Filing.

    •Mail a copy of the domestic contract, or paternity agreement along with a copy of the affidavit and a completed registration package to the FRO.

    Once that information has been received the domestic contract is registered.

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  • Exquizique
    replied
    Originally posted by hadenough View Post
    The FRO is automatic once there's an order. Whether its by a judge or a separation agreement that's been hammered out. Parties must "opt out" of FRO. Both parties. Otherwise, FRO is automatically involved. It would be great to not have to deal w/them but when there's situations like mine: I need all the "enforcement" I can get. I called FRO (re: his latest pymt) - they said to cash it. I'm not anywhere in their system. Nor is he (the ex). YET. Once we are: THEN I am not to take any monies from him directly.
    Ah yes, so there is an option to opt out, that's good to know.

    If FRO was to be in the position to actually carry out their mandate the way it was intended to be, then i have no arguments with FRO being the enforcing party, especially for high conflict cases and cases with a history of non-payment. However, with the way things are with FRO right now, until they get their internal affairs in order i can tell you that sadly, if you are in the "unlucky" majority of recipients you are not going to get the "enforcement" you think you will get from FRO. Is there a need for an agency/body like FRO? Absolutely. But with the way things are right now, i would say that unless it's extreme circumstances of ridiculous conflict bewteen the two parties and willful/malicious evasion of responsibilities from the payor, then it's simply not worth the grief, stress and frustration to go through FRO if there's even a chance of some sort of alternative arrangement for payment being made. All i can say is that i work in the government, and the mess that is FRO is pretty ... horrific, even for government. There's unlikely going to be any improvements on FRO's end for a good many years yet.

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  • hadenough
    replied
    The FRO is automatic once there's an order. Whether its by a judge or a separation agreement that's been hammered out. Parties must "opt out" of FRO. Both parties. Otherwise, FRO is automatically involved. It would be great to not have to deal w/them but when there's situations like mine: I need all the "enforcement" I can get. I called FRO (re: his latest pymt) - they said to cash it. I'm not anywhere in their system. Nor is he (the ex). YET. Once we are: THEN I am not to take any monies from him directly. Also, to Mess: the courts go back to the date of APPLICATION, as to do otherwise would provide an incentive for parties to hold off on commencing proceedings (and thereby accumulating more arrears). This was specifically mentioned in the Judgment I rec'd. We separated in 2007. My application in court was Sep/08. All amts now ordered payable go back only to the APPLICATION date. The F.R.O.'s website explains how it all works. For example, parties can "opt out" and then down the road, one party may wish to re-involve them. This is possible and ofcourse, for a fee: I believe it's $50 or thereabouts. They re-open the file.. Start the "process" and you wait...

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  • Exquizique
    replied
    Originally posted by CSAngel View Post
    I think you're right on that - however, chances are that if you've been through court then the parties are not agreeable and the chance of getting both to consent to NOT going through FRO would be slim to none.
    Very true, unfortunately. Just another example of how people inadvertently screw each other over simply by not willing to be mature, civil and reasonable adults ...

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  • HappyMomma
    replied
    Originally posted by Exquizique View Post
    Yes, once it goes through court it becomes the "default" mechanism to channel support payments. However, i do believe that there's a way to "withdraw" from FRO handling the support payments, with both parties signing more documents indicating their consent and such ... don't know too much about it as i've never looked into it that carefully. I have heard about it though, perhaps someone here can validate/disconfirm ...
    I think you're right on that - however, chances are that if you've been through court then the parties are not agreeable and the chance of getting both to consent to NOT going through FRO would be slim to none.

    Leave a comment:

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