Violation of Custody and Access Order

[swimmingwithsharks2011]

Hi, I haven't been on this forum for a while, as I have been dealing with a very unpleasant and sudden significant change in custody and access for the last while.

Would really appreciate some advise, because this situation is totally new to me. Following is some important background info to understand the current situation.

1) Possess a custody-access final order, where two kids reside with me, and other parent has alternate weekends, one night during week, and shared major holidays. We have been following this schedule for the last 7 years without any major problems until several weeks ago.

2) My weekend with kids (one 12 other 16). Older one gets in argument with me, tells me to shut my mouth and ''f'' off. I get very upset - was raised by military dad with 6 siblings. Never talked that way to parents or got serious consequences. My dad regularly criticizes me that I don't discipline kids enough.

3) For the first time in our 7 years of access schedule, I tell kids to go to dad's for rest of weekend. Wasn't particularily polite about the request. Basically sent them packing.

4) Cooled down by Monday, went to collect kids, both refused to see or talk to me. Very bizarre behaviour.

5) Two days later get a letter from other parent, says custody has changed, and how would I like to set up my new access schedule. No discussion with them, or kids, no notice of a court appearance to change order, nothing.

6) I spend the next 7 weeks, trying to see and talk to kids. They are both acting very strange with me, barely want to speak to me, and when they do, both are very hostile, or cold and distant. Don't want to see me most of the time or talk to me, unless I offer to take them shopping. Have spent a total of approx. 5 hours with each, separately in the last 7 weeks. Never seen this type of behaviour from either of them. Never have been so restricted from seeing or being with my kids.

7) Talk to other parent about kids not wanting to see me, and that their job is to encourage my relationship with them, as I have done without fail for them for last 7 years and very successfully, as children have rarely missed their access time with other parent, usually because other parent goes on business trips during their time, which we usually make up. Other parent says, ''I'm deferring to what they want.'' Basically, a shrug of the shoulders, too bad so sad for you response.

8) At week 6, arranged for family counselling to try to get some help with kids to start talking to me and seeing me. At this point, seriously suspect parental alienation from other parent. Only explanation for kids wanting nothing to do with me so suddenly. Don't know if family counselling is going to help

9) Would have gone straight to court for an emergency motion to enforce custody, but have a dispute resolution clause in our final divorce order, for custody/access disputes where we are to engage a mediator-arbitrator to resolve. Have got legal advise and told, even though other parent is in contempt of our custody\access order, we both have legal obligation to use mediator-arbitrator because it's in our divorce order.

10) How do we now go to a mediator-arbitrator now to negotiate custody/access when kids don't even want to be in the same room with me, or talk to me on the phone, or ride with me in my car anywhere, or be at the house with me? This situation is crazy. There is clearly parental alienation going on which complicates the whole custody/access decisions.

The 16 year old knows they can vote with their feet, but has generally followed our access schedule most times. They are slowly coming around in the last week or two, and spending more time with me now, but it's going very slowly. Younger child wants nothing to do with me, and tells me so. Like a knife to the heart. The counsellor (Highly experienced Psychologist for custody/access problems) may or may not be able to help us, doesn't promise anything.

Does anyone out there have any experience or knowledge to share? Would really appreciate some advise, as we are supposed to book the first appointment with the mediator-arbitrator next week, and I'm very wary about going to the table with such an unfortunate situation going on right now with the kids.

[Rioe]

Not that I know a single thing about parenting teenagers, but have you tried sincerely apologizing for basically dumping them off at their dad's like you were taking out the garbage?

Sure, it sounds like the dad isn't making the situation better, but it was all triggered by your response to typical immature teenage behaviour.

Also, you got rid of both of them in response to something that only one of them did. The older one just learned that when someone does something you don't like, you get rid of them. Hence, the ignoring of you in response to you dumping them off. And the younger one, who didn't even do anything wrong and doesn't have any guilt or sense of implication in the events, is following the lead of the older one.

And on top of this, instead of their dad gently easing them back into contact with you, he's probably delighted to see more of them and not too unhappy with how things have turned out.

Why don't you suggest, after sitting down with them and respectfully apologizing for overreacting, that you try 50-50 custody to move onwards? That way you get a break more often from teenage behaviour, their dad doesn't have to completely give up all the extra time he's been given, and the kids know that you understand how you were in the wrong back there and intend to make amends.

[ddol1]

So here are 4 links - you will need this to understand the dynamics and the huge uphill war you are about to embark - and you need to do this for yourself and the kids.

Only one thing I might add from the words you used. No doubt you took a stand with your older child, but have you considered the consequence of including your youngest in the discipline measure. I grew up in the same type of household you describe and as a kid I could never think of living any other way...... So many kids today are influenced by what is out there and I go out on the limb with....... too many parents are too busy to devote the time thier kids need...IMHO!

I am not so sure that this act was as described as out with the garbage. What you did, what you said and how you said it means everything in theis situation - something that your post did not provide any info on - so hard to make an assumption like this. It is not quite like mom kicking the kids out the door and having them walk to dad's (for dramatic effect - in a snowstorm). You made a decision and you took action. In the end perhaps everyone concerned will havethings to learn to move past this event.

this doc is long at 88 pages but it was invaluable for the info it contained.
http://www.fact.on.ca/Info/pas/hap2004.pdf

http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...er-kids-10255/

Parental Alienation Syndrome, PAS, parental alienation in Divorce, children's rights, Canada

Recognizing High Conflict People

[swimmingwithsharks2011]

Custody-Access

Thank you for the responses,

One suggesting I put the kids' out like garbage was hurtful and completely unhelpful, and made in true ignorance. The other suggesting I read a bunch of material about hostile-aggressive parents with the little information I have provided in my post is truly troubling.

Is there anyone who can provide me with constructive, non personal attacking advise? I'm just hurting a wee bit here, not being able to see my kids.

[Rioe]

It was not my intention to be hurtful, and I did say that I was ignorant of parenting teenagers as I'm not there yet. But I was trying to get you to think of how your kids felt they had been treated. Of course it's not what you intended them to feel, and not how you felt about it, but as you can tell, something certainly went awry.

It's time to stop thinking of how hurt you feel and start thinking of how you hurt your kids' feelings.

[swimmingwithsharks2011]

Custody-Access Problems

Hi,

Should add here. I telephoned ex to come and pick up kids, to which they happily and swiftly arrived.

I also sincerely apologized to both kids 2 days later, and again together with the help of family counsellor. Still no response, and it's been a few months! 16 year old is slowly coming around.

Basically, I screwed up with the disciplining, and I have taken responsibilty for it. What parent hasn't screwed up at least once when they are parenting teens? If one says they haven't, then they are lying. Both My kids and I have established, close relationships over the years. How can that all change so dramatically, and so swiftly and so completely?

[swimmingwithsharks2011]

Custody and Access Problems

Rioe says:

''It's time to stop thinking of how hurt you feel and start thinking of how you hurt your kids' feelings."


That's all I've been thinking of for the last few months is the kids. I'm doing everything I can to make amends with them, but nothing seems to be working. Something else is going on here. It's not normal for your kids to go from living with you one day, taking vacations with you, spending the entire summer vacation time together, and then all of a sudden, now not wanting to even talk to you on the phone or see you at all.

Why do I feel I need to defend myself as a loving and caring parent to a complete stranger here? This isn't helpful or constructive.

My original question and still hasn't been addressed. How does one go to the mediation-arbitration table on custody-access now (which we have to do) when the kids in question don't even want to talk to one of their parents on the phone and ex isn't lifting a finger to encourage them to see or talk to me?

[ddol1]

swimming with thesharks2011

First and foremost you need to understand that PAS (parental alienation Syndrome) and HAP (hostile agressive parenting) are very much linked so far to say that they for no better way to express this, They are the same thing!

I understand you are very disturbed with this - so was I when I discovered this was happening to me for now six months.


Open this thread and read it all - it is on parental alienation
http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...372/#post77017

Please reopen this link and as a start, read page 5 of 88 which on the very first paragraph is a discription of the traits to which you find yourself so disturbed by.
http://www.fact.on.ca/Info/pas/hap2004.pdf

I will be honest with you - I live for my children, I have given my heart and sole to my children and I can't begin to tell you how difficult this has been on me, my will to continue and the day to which for the second time since this horid mess began to find that i came so close to making the biggest mistake one can make.

If you noted that I actually supported you with respect to the night in question and perhaps slightly hasty... no just alot of information at once.

Please understand, even in your troubled state that these posts were offered to others, myself and I have passed these on to several gratefull parents like Yourself - like Myself when they were offered to me and finally like many other parents that are on this site. I can tell you of how deep and hard I have been affected by PAS which is extremely and very well discribed unbiasedly in the first link, a paper offered by an organization within Ontario.

Hope is you have made it this far...... open and look at each of the links I have sent you as each in its own way provides more information, different perspectives on the very issue you find yourself in - Parental Alienation.

Regards

[ddol1]

I will add quickly - I type real slow - I started sending you the last reply and about 10 came in during the time it took me to type it. The last post you asked how do I go to mediation when?

Again it begins with learning about what you state The parential alienation. I will tell you that the night I recieved this info I started to read at 6pm and I didn't stop until a few minutes after 4am............ I read the 88 page document, some times for several sections, many times over as I absorbed this information, what was happening currently, the previous three months when all this started and after really absorbing the main document I learned for the first time that my wife had been living these traits even as a young girl, then during the majority of our marriage to some degree and as time went on the pressures increased.

I had taken this as kids being kids, wanting to break away from thier parent and then she asked for the divorce. She was so good at this that in no time she turned the kids fully over. The kids never realized that they were actually responding to seeds planted over years and then bluntly, they surcummed to the brainwashing as if an experert was at the riens. Turns out to my dismay - my stbx is an "expert".

[swimmingwithsharks2011]

Denied Access

Hi,

Thank you DDOL1 for the links. I did take a look at them this a.m. I can read very fast and skimmed the 88 page doc, then downloaded it to my computer.

Reading this stuff that I have been living with for years, in print is very, very scary, but explains a lot.

I can see that I am doing all the right things right now, struggling to have contact with my kids, documenting it, and getting outside professional help ASAP for myself and kids. I will continue to do these things as I'm allowed.

I had such a difficult, protracted a painful divorce proceeding to go through, which left me completely exhausted. I was beginning to heal after the divorce papers were finally signed and filed at court. Then to have this happen before the ink was even dry on our divorce papers is truly upsetting and discombobbulating. I've barely picked myself up off the floor from the divorce proceedings and now I have to deal with this, which in my opinion is potentially far more damaging and insidious because it directly impacts our beloved children who don't deserve this.

I'm being thrown into another "system" now - mediation-arbitration for custody and access, while all of this is going on which I can barely wrap my weary brain around. Do I say, No, we need to deal with the PAS first before engaging, or do we soldier on to another stranger to decide the fate of our children while they are clearly being alienated, and depend on the knowledge and expertise of the mediator-arbitrator to understand the signs and symptoms and protect the children in "the best interests of the children."?

This is my current dilemma.

[ddol1]

I could write a novel here but I just do not have it in me.... But mediation takes two sides, both at ease to be at the table. Think of the issue of a spouse that is/was subjected to physical and emotional abuse and that is clearly a case that mediation can not take place because of the influence. Is PAS any different, I do not think so. Is PAS understood by the people you would expect should be? Learning the case is very much a shock to read that this is NOT understood by most. Defending your rights and the rights of your children (as you understand are damaged by this) is a huge endevour that will take every bit of energy you can put forth.

You must find people who are very up to speed on the issues involved even before you can begin to think of mediating or going to court. Do a search here on this forum for PAS, hostile parenting and you will find more usefull info than i have given (my attempt was to get you to see - now that your eyes are more open you can stop the emotional aspect to the best of your ability and begin to formulate your solid action plan to put an end to this.

If you haven't realized it yet, your case felt like it happened overnight - but I think you now understand that perhaps things were going on to which you did not recognize but now you do. My kids are older, so much so I still can't absorb the almost overnight change that occurred - my kids are all in post secondary, yes I have had a few really hard years as a result of my disabilties and ongoing medical issues but essentially I have not changed, I have not lashed out, if anything I have retreated to free my family to live thier lives, not worry about mine. But I now believe all this doesn't matter, we are two different cases but it doesn't matter - In the end it is the children that are damaged and untill the environment is changed nothing will improve I am sure.

What is so shocking is that my stbx has no clue, she does not understand and my children have no clue, they do not understand aside from as part of the alienation is the ability for the manipulator to transpose onto the children any feelings they need to fullfill thier world. I thought I was going crazy, I was losing my mind as I saw this, as I heard this happen right before my eyes - So many times with me standing in the same room! Calling these people on it and they all deny it all, every time, every word - then it was all put onto my shoulders. I watched as I was losing everything and I did everything I could and everything just made it worse. I finally listened to advice that at least for me at this time is right - to stop defending myself, to stop confronting, to stop interacting. They still speak but it is rare - they approach when they have to, they go to great lengths to not however.

I at this time can only hope that once this divorce is over that things can slowly turn to more normal and that indeed I was not out to destroy this family. In reality she wanted this divorce and I repeat that I have no issue with this - that I must protect my rights and secure my future which sadly will depend entirely on the settlement I get. I supported this family for the majority of our marriage and even with my not being able to work for so many years this remains true. I need her help as we go forward while she sees this as her money, her right to leave and her right not to support me now (doctors reconfirmed that the likelyhood of my being able to be employed is nonexistent) so I have no choice in what is coming - my life depends on it.

In the end, the children are hurt the most. If this is actually true, in time the influence will diminish as the children move on with thier lives. If what is claimed is true, in time the person who was the manipulator will have all this backfire in thier face...... can I last that long? What is certain now is she has no clue what is happened to her, what she is doing to hurt me is really hurting the children and I now understand how powerfull and destructive PAS is, the high conflict in this divorce - the mediator??? lasted less than five minutes - I can still hear her screaming - did she here what the mediator was trying to tell her? Not a word.

If we gave this iinformation to our spouses I am certaiin they would not see this one bit in themselves, even her childhood things but what shocked me so much and has made me truely afraid is how could they write an 88 page document so detailed and so much, so built around my stbx? How they wrote this without every seeing her? Just about the entire document rang my bell - they were writing of her. Did I actually marry the ipidome of HAP and PAS????

I wrote this - I do understand, we are not alone here. Young or older this destroys the lives of everyone involved - but now that we begin to understand we have a chance of getting through this. And I agree with you that if you are drained from your marriage breakdown, the energy to get past this is or will be far greater - and the rewards will be the greatest of all. If I can help - let me know.

[LostFather]

Hi, I haven't been on this forum for a while, as I have been dealing with a very unpleasant and sudden significant change in custody and access for the last while.

Would really appreciate some advise, because this situation is totally new to me. Following is some important background info to understand the current situation.

1) Possess a custody-access final order, where two kids reside with me, and other parent has alternate weekends, one night during week, and shared major holidays. We have been following this schedule for the last 7 years without any major problems until several weeks ago.

2) My weekend with kids (one 12 other 16). Older one gets in argument with me, tells me to shut my mouth and ''f'' off. I get very upset - was raised by military dad with 6 siblings. Never talked that way to parents or got serious consequences. My dad regularly criticizes me that I don't discipline kids enough.

3) For the first time in our 7 years of access schedule, I tell kids to go to dad's for rest of weekend. Wasn't particularily polite about the request. Basically sent them packing.

4) Cooled down by Monday, went to collect kids, both refused to see or talk to me. Very bizarre behaviour.

5) Two days later get a letter from other parent, says custody has changed, and how would I like to set up my new access schedule. No discussion with them, or kids, no notice of a court appearance to change order, nothing.

6) I spend the next 7 weeks, trying to see and talk to kids. They are both acting very strange with me, barely want to speak to me, and when they do, both are very hostile, or cold and distant. Don't want to see me most of the time or talk to me, unless I offer to take them shopping. Have spent a total of approx. 5 hours with each, separately in the last 7 weeks. Never seen this type of behaviour from either of them. Never have been so restricted from seeing or being with my kids.

7) Talk to other parent about kids not wanting to see me, and that their job is to encourage my relationship with them, as I have done without fail for them for last 7 years and very successfully, as children have rarely missed their access time with other parent, usually because other parent goes on business trips during their time, which we usually make up. Other parent says, ''I'm deferring to what they want.'' Basically, a shrug of the shoulders, too bad so sad for you response.

8) At week 6, arranged for family counselling to try to get some help with kids to start talking to me and seeing me. At this point, seriously suspect parental alienation from other parent. Only explanation for kids wanting nothing to do with me so suddenly. Don't know if family counselling is going to help

9) Would have gone straight to court for an emergency motion to enforce custody, but have a dispute resolution clause in our final divorce order, for custody/access disputes where we are to engage a mediator-arbitrator to resolve. Have got legal advise and told, even though other parent is in contempt of our custody\access order, we both have legal obligation to use mediator-arbitrator because it's in our divorce order.

10) How do we now go to a mediator-arbitrator now to negotiate custody/access when kids don't even want to be in the same room with me, or talk to me on the phone, or ride with me in my car anywhere, or be at the house with me? This situation is crazy. There is clearly parental alienation going on which complicates the whole custody/access decisions.

The 16 year old knows they can vote with their feet, but has generally followed our access schedule most times. They are slowly coming around in the last week or two, and spending more time with me now, but it's going very slowly. Younger child wants nothing to do with me, and tells me so. Like a knife to the heart. The counsellor (Highly experienced Psychologist for custody/access problems) may or may not be able to help us, doesn't promise anything.

Does anyone out there have any experience or knowledge to share? Would really appreciate some advise, as we are supposed to book the first appointment with the mediator-arbitrator next week, and I'm very wary about going to the table with such an unfortunate situation going on right now with the kids.

Pas would be very hard to prove. Believe me. I could list a while slew of sicking things my ex has done and used the children to exact her revenge of me leaving her.

I think you need to sit down and relax, take some deep breaths and ponder what you're about to embark on here. You need to consider the children's age and what they want. Both boys?? Puberty...and dad...which they spent the last 12-16 years of being with you the majority of the time. Maybe its just time for change and you tossing them out was just the trigger. Maybe I missed it but why both kids when one was being an ass?

What you're thinking about doing will not only be finainaclly draining, it will be emotionally as well and could drive your boys into further resentment that they may already have for you.

You say your ex had the boys eow and one night through the week...why? Why not equal access? Is there cs involved? Thats what he wanted or was imposed on him and your boys? These are all valid questions and comments. You really need to think about the answers and the past and I think you just.might get many of your answers. Maybe!

[Gary M]

You ask questions and people take the time to answer. If you don't like the answer(s) you recieve, at least have the good graces to shut the fuck up and avoid complaining.

You manner here, likely just the tip of the iceberg, says a lot about you - and a lot about why your kids are acting the way they are.

Listen to what people have to say, consider their advice, take a goooooooooood look at yourself, and begin to rebuild your relationship.

IMHO, sending your kids packing back to Dad's was a bad (BAD) move, and I've no doubt that you're minimizing your part.

Although that might not be what you want to hear, it is exactly what you need to hear. If you don't like it, well, that's just too bad.

Gary

[swimmingwithsharks2011]

<TABLE style="BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px" class=tborder border=0 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center><TBODY><TR title="Post 79352" vAlign=top><TD class=alt2 width=125 align=middle>Gary M</TD><TD class=alt1>You ask questions and people take the time to answer. If you don't like the answer(s) you recieve, at least have the good graces to shut the fuck up and avoid complaining.

You manner here, likely just the tip of the iceberg, says a lot about you - and a lot about why your kids are acting the way they are.

Listen to what people have to say, consider their advice, take a goooooooooood look at yourself, and begin to rebuild your relationship.

IMHO, sending your kids packing back to Dad's was a bad (BAD) move, and I've no doubt that you're minimizing your part.

Although that might not be what you want to hear, it is exactly what you need to hear. If you don't like it, well, that's just too bad.

Gary </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Gary M.

You ask questions and people take the time to answer. If you don't like the answer(s) you recieve, at least have the good graces to shut the fuck up and avoid complaining.

You manner here, likely just the tip of the iceberg, says a lot about you - and a lot about why your kids are acting the way they are.

Listen to what people have to say, consider their advice, take a goooooooooood look at yourself, and begin to rebuild your relationship.

IMHO, sending your kids packing back to Dad's was a bad (BAD) move, and I've no doubt that you're minimizing your part.

Although that might not be what you want to hear, it is exactly what you need to hear. If you don't like it, well, that's just too bad.

Gary

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

You know what Gary, I don't think you have the foggiest idea of what "good graces" actually means.

You are a very offensive person. Don't you know the basic rules of netiquette, like not dropping the f bomb and passing sentence on people with your trivel drivels of hate and arrogance. You sound like a very bitter, unhappy person. I feel sorry for you.

The fact that you feel comfortable rudely and arrogantly judging a person that you don't even know, speaks volumes about you.

I joined this forum to give and get information in a considerate and caring manner, not to be verbally abused, judged and sentenced by a obviously embittered stranger. Good grief, haven't we all had enough of that crap from our ex's and soon-to-be ex's. Surely we don't need more of it from people like you on this forum.

I suspect that many if not most of the people on this forum are struggling with all the ramifications of divorce, which is a painful and ugly affair. And I suspect many, including myself have joined this forum to get help and assistance with navigating through the myriad of problems and issues involved, especially when there are children involved.

Your toxic attitude and comments do nothing to provide help or support to me, and I suspect others, because I've read your other comments to other people, and there is a clear pattern here.

Why don't you give your embittered attitude, and self-professed, useless advise a permanent rest? I know I will appreciate it.

[swimmingwithsharks2011]

LostFather,

Thank you for the reply. Breathing is important.

Yes, CS has been involved, as well as the Office of the Children's Lawyer who recommended the custody/access arrangement. This arrangement has worked for the last 7 years, without a single incident.

Actually, the evidence of PAS is piling up very rapidly, with the recognition of it from a very experienced counsellor who is very concerned. That being said, I recognize it's going on, and am dealing with it with the help of counselling. I have no desire to drag the issue through the courts or try to convince anyone else that it's happening. It is going on, and I'm dealing with it to the best of my abilities.

What I have learned in the last few weeks, is that when PAS is suspected, it is imperative that the parent who is the target must act very quickly upon recognition to counter the destructive effects of, what I have learned is a form of child abuse. The sooner the other parent acts constructively and decisively toward the children, it lessens or hopefully reverses the effects. If a parent waits too long to act, reversing the damage later on becomes a much harder task.



Going back to my original intent for my post, to which I still haven't got any reply.

We are going to arbitration on the custody/access shortly. At least this time I won't have to deal with a family court judge suffering from heartburn, hurried schedule to meet a train, frustration from the previous case, or jaded attitude anymore, if there is anything good about this situation.

Has anyone on the forum used mediation followed by arbitration (not just mediation) for custody and access? Would really appreciate hearing about your experiences good and bad.

I've had my fill of harsh, ill-informed judgements and abusive language on this issue. So, please bite your fingers before you type something nasty, it only reflects poorly back on you to a whole lot of other people who are on this forum.