Dealing with Exes with Personality Disorders

[Pursuinghappiness]

There have been a few threads discussing the difficulty of dealing with a high-conflict ex in family court...especially ones that exhibit traits of personality disorder(s).

Can anyone who's had experience with this type of ex give tips on how to deal with it? Is it worth seeking amicable resolution?

I'm specifically interested in those that have dealt with paranoids, pathological liars, controllers, and/or narcissistic types.

[torontonian]

No possibility of reconciliation with controllers - once you don't want to play their games, you move into the enemy camp.

[MiViLaLoco]

First of all, let me say there is no "quick fix" or one piece of advice that works for everyone. This whole area is various shades of grey and it is more about you learning and understanding what really makes them tick and then using that to your advantage.

My ex would fall under the "controlling bully" / "paranoid" type. He's been this way all his life, and will never change.

Our separation was as amicable as possible because I knew what his weaknesses were and played to them. Not to manipulate him, but to ensure that he "felt" he was getting his way and that everything was "his idea". To do it any other way was like trying to move a 5 story brick wall...he just refused to budge...no matter how fair or reasonable I was being. If he perceived something as "my idea" or seen to benefit me...then he was against it and our negotiations stalled to a standpoint over the smallest issue.

A perfect example of this was his outright refusal of 50/50 for our son...when I told him that was what I wanted. He only wanted one day a week and every other weekend and refused to budge. I knew it was not in the best interests of our son to have his dad out of his life that much...so I suggested a trial period for the 50/50...just to see how it would go. About 2 months into the trial period the ex "suggested 50/50" and I aggreed. lol

For the division of assests we tried using a mediator, however, every time he perceived the mediator to be "on my side" he shut down and would not go any further until I "gave in". The mediator actually took me aside and said that I was being far to understanding and compromising and that he was there for both of us...and he was concerned that if I continued to "give in" that I would end up with nothing. I advised the mediator that I knew what I was doing.

In the end, through working together (oh the irony of it all! lol) the ex and I hammered out our own separation agreement for the assets...in one afternoon! It was later in the process and I basically agreed to all the "seeds" I'd been planting as "his ideas"...lol. There was some tricky negotiating on a couple of things, but for the most part it was fairly smooth.

My best advice to you is to get into therapy yourself, so you understand why you react to them and how to stop it. You can then discuss with your therapsit about how to handle certain situations so the outcome has a greater chance of being fair.

Above all else, find their weakness, and use it! For my ex...it was $$$. Pure and simple. $$$ He wanted all of it, did not want to part with anything and felt everything we had accumulated during marriage was his, and his alone. However, once he began to understand what it was going to cost him to keep everything (thanks to my constantly planting seeds about lawyers fees and how it is in the lawyers best interest to keep conflict going so they get paid more) he became easier to negotiate with. I still walked away with a bit less then he did, just to have it over. However, I think the fact that I don't have to deal with him all day, every day, anymore is absolutely priceless.

The learning process I went through for this has also made it way easier for me to negotiate and navigate the raising of our son.

[Lorac]

I think my X must be your X's twin brother. I would have to say my X is very narcissistic...it's all about him. He's an only child... has a mother, no cousins, one aunt and one uncle and that's it. He feels everyone owes him and I just don't mean money wise. He boast about all the people he knows, how important he thinks he is and feels he has intitlement to everything. He would most likely say I'm psycho, unstable, on drugs, crazy and I don't understand him...such a cliche :-) He is extremely spiteful and can hold a grudge for years. This was his biggest downfall. To this day he still bad mouthes me to everyone and like everyone here says...lie low and he'll hang himself...guess what...he did!!! Thank you everyone :-)

[frustratedwithex]

This information is taken from this web site as recommended by Tayken.
More on "Emotional Facts" can be found here and other high-conflict patterns of behaviour: Recognizing High Conflict People

I have found this information about fear helpful. I see all these patterns in my stbx and I am trying to keep them in mind when communicating.

High conflict people are driven by these four fears
The Fear of Being Ignored
The Fear of Being Belittled
The Fear of Being Abandoned
The Fear of Being Dominated

The rest of the article talks about ways to respond to these fears.

MIVILaLoco seems to have done this when mediating with her ex. Thanks for sharing, it has encouraged me to be conscious of this the next time I am in a meeting with my stbx.

[judepude]

I have his brother! He definately has somekind mental problem. He has always put me down in front of all of our friends when we are out. Makes me feel very stupid. Buys cars, boats, rvs, etc., and says it is his money so he can do with it what he wants, not realizing that he loses money on every deal. He is the type that gets tired of things very quickly and has to change them, I believe I am the longest thing he has had! This has to be a sickness but when I mention it to him he gets very angry. This has been very difficult to deal with for the past 10 years, I think it must be some sort of male menopause. I know this will not come up in our divorce but I do believe it is the cause of our divorce. He does say I am psycho, unstable, on drugs and crazy. I am on pain meds. but don't even take what is subsribed to me because I don't want to become addicted. believe he is just making up reasons for leaving me. Anyway just needed to vent as this is a very trying time in my life. Don't know what is going to happen except that my lawyer is going to become richer and I am going to be working at tim hortons.

[judepude]

I need to talk to you more, I think you have the twin to my husband. I am so tired of being stupid and he is the one with the money and controlles everything. I need to know how to get around this horrible feeling. I need strength, wisdom, and of course a good lawyer, and money.

[blinkandimgone]

.... I believe I am the longest thing he has had!

I'm sorry, but this made me lol.

[Tayken]

There have been a few threads discussing the difficulty of dealing with a high-conflict ex in family court...especially ones that exhibit traits of personality disorder(s).

Can anyone who's had experience with this type of ex give tips on how to deal with it? Is it worth seeking amicable resolution?

I'm specifically interested in those that have dealt with paranoids, pathological liars, controllers, and/or narcissistic types.

You are talking about Axis II cluster B disordered people. This includes histrionic, borderline and narcissists. This whole axis is being re-done in DSM-V. They are being lumped under a single grouping of sociopaths.

Careful of the push-me pull-me patterns of behavior that these possibly personality disordered people exhibit. I highly recommend you start with "Stop Walking on Egg Shells" and then move into the materials written William Eddy to get a better understanding on how to deal with it all.

There is nothing you really can do to "fix" the problem. As with all disabilities (mental) it is up to the person who has the problem to "fix" it. No matter what you do... You can't change someone else. Only they can change their patterns of behavior.

Good Luck!
Tayken

PS: People do change. The challenge is that they have to "want" to change.

[judepude]

No possibility of reconciliation with controllers - once you don't want to play their games, you move into the enemy camp.

I don't want to play his game but he scares me because he is so smart when it comes to finances and hiding things. I really don't know what to do next. I have got a lawyer now but we all know what happens now. Nothing. I am wondering about a an forensic acct. only if I get this prenup put aside. I figure he has bought his own house, he only comes home one night out of the week. I quess that would be so that he is not abanding the house. Right.Most of his clothes are gone. He doesn't even come to see his little dog, who misses him so much. So sad.

[May_May]

Can anyone who's had experience with this type of ex give tips on how to deal with it? Is it worth seeking amicable resolution?

I'm specifically interested in those that have dealt with paranoids, pathological liars, controllers, and/or narcissistic types.

I've received some great advice, and for the most part it has worked. I will share some of what has worked;

1) you need to take control back (easier said than done...keep reading...)

2) set boundaries
-no more talking over the phone, or in person
-only communicate via email
-if you send a note with a question, and his/her response is a 'rant'/ ignore the irrelevant comments, and just repeat your question or response until it is answered. Do not acknowledge the rants/miscellaneous crap
-send a note letting him/her know that communication will be via email from here on in, and there will be no more verbal communication unless it is an EMERGENCY with the children

3) My stbx has lied about several things. I chose the most obvious and incriminating lie, had my lawyer send a note for a response. They replied back with a complete outrageous lie. My next reply said we would be booking a court date, and he would have to pay fees. Next was a phonecall (no more notes) from his lawyer to mine conceding. I'm hoping this will set precedence and he will stop.
(my stbx was furious with me after, and said he was sick of me calling him a liar (I did not use those words-I used the legal system...he was caught))

4) Thick Skin (as Mess says...). I have no advice for dealing with the people you need to interact with daily (where your ex has lied about you, fabricated stories)...This happens to me on a daily basis and I've learned to ignore it. This was not an easy adjustment for me.

5) HOPE ? It's getting worse everyday trying to get to the end of this divorce. I still have hope it can be done amicably. Can't hurt ... Even if he reacts worse to 20 items-if 1 is improved or agreed upon it's better than nothing.

6) Take advice from here...Blink has pulled me back a couple of times and I've bitten my tongue, and tried to be the more mature adult and improve the situation. It hasn't worked, and probably never will, but at least I'm trying.

[Pursuinghappiness]

Thank you for the advice. Very very much appreciate it.

The personal life stuff I've already done. Our communication is almost nil and I just ignore the constant bad-mouthing me to whomever will listen. Its actually kind of ridiculous considering that most of the neighbors that we attended parties at know EXACTLY what the deal is. He would get drunk and insult and try to belittle me right in front of them. I remember well the looks of pity on their faces during events. The same is true of my wonderful family and friends and they were all very glad I was finally ending my marriage. I have a lot of amazing support.

I was more hoping for ways to end the never-ending legal crap but per the responses, it probably isn't going to happen and I'm in for the long haul. He basically just lies on everything he's put forward...I'm not a reactive person and even I'm surprised by the total nonsense that he's lied about. Things that he has no evidence of and are easy to catch him out on. He has zero support to cooberate his bull. I just don't understand what he's trying to accomplish, aside from obviously trying to bankrupt me with legal bills.

I was wondering if it was worth suggesting a settlement since I'd like to have this over with in the New Year but its probably a waste of time considering his mentality and I'm better off just hanging in there and slugging it out in court. In fact, I'm planning to go on the offensive to speed things up.

The good news is that his behavior has really reinforced and validated that I'm doing exactly the right thing in walking away from this marriage. I'm surprised that despite all the noise and trauma of family court and all the ongoing change, how much I'm enjoying life these days and how happy my kids are.

Thank you again for the feedback!

[frustratedwithex]

Careful of the push-me pull-me patterns of behavior that these possibly personality disordered people exhibit. I highly recommend you start with "Stop Walking on Egg Shells" and then move into the materials written William Eddy to get a better understanding on how to deal with it all.

I am finding this material very helpful. This push-me pull-me behavior isn't always obvious to me at the time it is happening, but I am getting better at recognizing it.

I was more hoping for ways to end the never-ending legal crap but per the responses, it probably isn't going to happen and I'm in for the long haul. He basically just lies on everything he's put forward...I'm not a reactive person and even I'm surprised by the total nonsense that he's lied about. Things that he has no evidence of and are easy to catch him out on. He has zero support to cooberate his bull. I just don't understand what he's trying to accomplish, aside from obviously trying to bankrupt me with legal bills.

Don't take the lies personally, just deal with what you need to, ignore the rest.

In my experience, he isn't trying to bankrupt you, he just believes he is right and is trying to prove that he is. He probably believes that the legal bills are your fault because high conflict people blame others when there is a problem. The feeling that they might be partially responsible for the dispute is unacceptable. He believes if you would just see this, that he is right, you could get an agreement and settle.

I was wondering if it was worth suggesting a settlement since I'd like to have this over with in the New Year but its probably a waste of time considering his mentality and I'm better off just hanging in there and slugging it out in court. In fact, I'm planning to go on the offensive to speed things up.

With high conflict people this is going to take time. I remember reading that 5 minutes of work is done for every hour of time spent mediating/negotiating. This sounded crazy at the time, but I just had a 1 hour mediation appointment with stbx and lawyers and sure enough this is exactly what happened. I was thinking at the time, why is stbx trying to discuss all this other stuff, we are here for 1 issue only. His lawyer reminded him of this, mediation lawyer reminded him, but he just kept trying to introduce other isssues. At the end of the appointment, the 1 issue we needed to discuss was settled in about 5 minutes, at about the 1/2 way point of the meeting.

I have spent time and money on 4 way meetings, sending offers, and mediation, what I now know is with this type of personality, this doesn't work. High conflict people expect to be treated differently than others. After each of these meetings stbx responded in ways that were ridiculous and unexpected by myself and my lawyer, (I think even his lawyer was surprised). For my stbx, it is all or nothing thinking. I either except all of what he is asking/offering, (no negotiating), or he withdraws everything and then exaggerates his exceptionally generous offer, (I accepted some of his offer, just not all of it), and minimizes me, (character assassination). Some of what he has done has only confused the situation and increased the conflict.

After almost 3 years, he is now considering something I proposed over a year ago.

I now know that the only way to reach settlement is either through court, or with binding mediation. Mediation any other way, is just reason for stbx to keep trying to convince me he is right.

MiviLaLoco has it right. If you can, let him believe it is his idea and expect to go slow. I think she said she anticipated a meeting of only a few hours and it took longer.

My best advice to you is to get into therapy yourself, so you understand why you react to them and how to stop it. You can then discuss with your therapsit about how to handle certain situations so the outcome has a greater chance of being fair.

The learning process I went through for this has also made it way easier for me to negotiate and navigate the raising of our son.

Great advice!

The more I learn about myself, the better I am at negotiating and not taking everything personally.

All the best!

[Pursuinghappiness]

After each of these meetings stbx responded in ways that were ridiculous and unexpected by myself and my lawyer, (I think even his lawyer was surprised).

I laughed when I read this because of a recent incident where my lawyer received a motion pushing something that I had tried to do myself 2x previously and he wouldn't comply with. The first words out of my lawyer's mouth was "what is wrong with him?" and I just started laughing.


Although I appreciate the advice on going to therapy, I won't be doing that because truthfully, I'm tired bothering to try to understand him. I had over 20 years of it and its the mental equivalent of spending time in Wonderland with the Red Queen....up is down...the earth is flat...the sky is purple...off with everyone's head that doesn't side with him. He spends hours and hours mentally progagandizing himself so that he can justify everything he does as right. The personal insults made to people I don't care about don't bother me at all. I have far more friends, family and support than he does and he's effectively disconnected himself far more than he's disconnected me. On a personal level, I'm very very happy now that I'm getting divorced. Not having to suffer his presence on a daily basis is wonderful. I'm enjoying life in a way I haven't for a long time.

What I am going to do is get off the crazy train. When he lies on legal documents, I'm going to continue gathering evidence to prove my side. I'm also not going to bother with mediation because complicating his behavioral and emotional issues are cultural issues. He's from one of those countries where women that try to leave husbands are buried in sand up to their neck and have rocks thrown at their heads. So he's double looney.

I've decided that I'm gonna go ahead and do everything through family court. I'm going to try to escalate the process a bit to get it moving. I have some things in my favor being that I have far, far more supporting evidence and testimony. He's at the point where he's blatantly lied on so many documents that its getting kind of interesting.

Thank you again for all the wonderful advice. Its very helpful and good to know that I've done many of the things recommended and there's a few more things I can work on.

[frustratedwithex]

Although I appreciate the advice on going to therapy, I won't be doing that because truthfully, I'm tired bothering to try to understand him. I had over 20 years of it and its the mental equivalent of spending time in Wonderland with the Red Queen....up is down...the earth is flat...the sky is purple...off with everyone's head that doesn't side with him.
quote]

Therapy isn't about trying to understand him. It's about you.

I would still reccomend this for you.

Originally Posted by MiViLaLoco
My best advice to you is to get into therapy yourself, so you understand why you react to them and how to stop it. You can then discuss with your therapsit about how to handle certain situations so the outcome has a greater chance of being fair.

The learning process I went through for this has also made it way easier for me to negotiate and navigate the raising of our son.

I can't explain this any better.