With this Forum, are lawyers really necessary?

[danzuchy]

swimmingwithsharks'

The family law system is working just fine. Many people don't understand the system is designed to fleece you and your family of all your wealth.
Family law is not complicated ( at first it is and so is figuring out your new camera at first).

The ethical family lawyers are mostly found doing legal aid or pro bono. With a little guidance the vast majority of people can get optimal results self representing. I believe this to be fact.

Effectively filling your documents out well is central to family law. You can strategize how you are going to present till your blue in the face, it mostly come down to a capricious judge.

Lastly, most of any success in family law is determined by what you did prior to starting court proceedings.

Huh? Designed for that? I think the "combatants" do a great job of fleecing themselves

Get two unreasonable vindictive losers who can't agree on anything, add an overburdened court system and what do you get? This disaster.

You can't blame the lawyers. What can they do if two people are unreasonable and instruct them to fight over every morsel of garbage they can?

[danzuchy]

Don't fool yourself.
If you have the means to hire a lawyer, you should.

You cannot argue that being self-represented is anything but a distinct disadvantage.

It's surprising how many people think they can navigate this very complex, emotional disaster without a lawyer. I can understand if you can't afford a lawyer but to call them "vultures" and "menaces" etc. is just pure asinine. A good lawyer can save your life.

I love watching these guys complain about 'lawyer" fees but the same people drop 1300 on BMW leases and Gucci purses.

Come on people, shake your head. Lawyers are needed and if you think you can self rep against a decent lawyer, good luck to you.

I agree with you wretched, self rep. is a huge disadvantage . The busier the court them more contempt you'll get.

[danzuchy]

Pursuinghappiness,

Outside of legal aid and FLIC, people are on their own with family law. I am so disgusted with the legal system , particularly the lawyers and judges and the profound negative consequences on families.

The Law Society of Upper Canada, the body that colludes with these legal bandits, has even barred paralegals from steeping into the lucrative field of family law. So I guess from the Attorney General wisdom, its OK for people to self rep but not ok for qualified paralegals ( about a $100.00 per hour compared to $ 250 - $700 per hour for a lawyer) to help people.

What I wish to do, is form a website/group to help all people with filing their paperwork with the courts for no charge. If I can save one person from spending one dollar with a lawyer my life was a success lol.

With the influx of "self represented" the courts are in disarray. Add paralegals to the mix and good luck. It will really turn into a five ring circus.

[SillyMe]

A couple of things need mentioning; There are those that would pray on the desperate reaching out for help. They are not lawyers, they will hurt your case, they will ask for money...some of them may even lurk here...beware these sharks. I agree having a lawyer is the best but, if your case is complicated the cost will be huge. The lawyer has two charges, 1. protecting, insulating and, filtering their client from the emotional garbage leveled from both sides. 2. Solid court representation.

If you are self rep'ing and it looks like it will be complicated you should consider a few things;

1. A confidant that can help you write up your past history. You wouldn't believe how many times this will be requested and how hard this really is. The OCL wants it, the court wants it, the therapist, etc. This is a document war...which brings me to the next point;

2. A computer and a good printer (you will need a copies for you, the court, the other side, repeat for the optional OCL, CAS, therapist, extra service, etc). My printing costs which includes such things as Tabs, Cover Stock paper, paper clips, copies, binders, etc. were easily a grand. So figure, what that would cost outside of having to do it with a law firm. Mind you, any lawyer would bock at the amount of work a self rep is willing to do. The reason? Who could remember it all unless, you only had a few cases. I think that point was made about the cheap vs. expensive lawyer. Mind you, I also believe the biggest pile wins...I am trying to help someone that has no computer skills. It isn't working very well...

3. Which bring ups this forum and having mentors...this resource will be invaluable (read, read, read). I had a great criminal lawyer and friend willing to take my calls, I had this forum (logical tks by the way), a good therapist and, I had myself...I burnt out my family and most of my friends...they didn't like hanging out in the dark divorce place that encompassed my life...If you want and there is money to burn, you can have the biggest fight and, the court will help you with that. Sometimes the money to burn is the public's and, both my divorces were publicly funded on the other side so...tks everybody for that

4. You can win against a lawyer! My first divorce to trial of some 26 days or so..blah, blah. I lost the case but, there wasn't one person including the court reporter that sat through most of that one said, should have gone to me...my children had to be abused a little longer. The second mini, trial/motion I don't know what the hell to call it; I self rep'd. One of the best days of my life was meeting the lawyer on the street so he could serve me his withdrawal from the case. He was the lawyer from the first case I lost...he so had his tail between his legs and I kicked butt The next one went the full monty trial and although she had a lawyer and they won...my daughter had to endure a little more, I kicked their butt Sometimes winning is done outside of the court...

5. The game saver...develop a sense of humor over it all. I know it sounds crazy and there isn't allot of that going around but, its a most important asset. To me its criminal to point of comedy this whole divorce industry. If I could suggest anything to anyone about to make an appearance in court, in front of a judge is; first to have a laugh at the whole absurdity of it all. Oh and read, read, read....maybe stay away from dtte...just kidding, he can be funny too...

6. There is a whole bunch of important law stuff I should mention too....

[anotherSTEPmother]

I think that this is more of a tricky issue, you can completely educate yourself on procedure and get EVERYTHING in line and still get slammed without the representation.

In our case we proceeded for 1 year without a lawyer. I think that we did well considering the circumstances and accusations from "mom" at the time. We had to file a motion to change and well have a lawyer this round, it has become evident that this is what is needed at this stage of the game.

If you are concerned about legal fees, there are many options. We prepare most of our paperwork when we can and also complete all service and filing to reduce costs. We are also VERY careful about communication through the lawyers and try to limit this at all costs.

The only issue is that the other party's lawyer is trying to financially bleed her dry and then will try and have costs imposed to us so there is still risk.

The be all end all is that a judge will trust the other party's lawyer to explain the situation if you are unrepresented. The will NOT do this in a unbiased manner. They also have a wealth of experience of successfully arguing cases in front of a judge which is very hard to do alone.

I would say do what you can yourself but ALWAYS bring a lawyer to game day to speak on your behalf!

[pokeman]

from my experience :

- if there is one lawyer in the room (hers) the judge will listen to them
- if no lawyers in the room the judge will listen to anyone in a professional position such as a therapist before they will listen to you
- if only one lawyer (hers) and they are lieing through their teeth and you call them on it and they studder and back step the issue the Judge wont do anything ...

remember judges were once lawyers too - if lawyers dont have any integrity then the judge doesnt either - one for the team got your back !

if your a man get a lawyer reference from a (man) friend of some success or contact your local mens group , if your a women than just about any lawyer will do except for the ones noted previously in this paragraph

[staysingle]

Upon further reflection, I agree with you.

[Tayken]

I would agree, with criminal lawyers and corporate lawyers. Family court is a circus if you will. A good lawyer will expertly fill and file your paperwork on time. Family law lawyers have access to powerful software, such as divorce-mate, that if we had access to would make self rep a breeze.

We need access to the same software they do.

They ( the lawyers and judges) make the process over the top complex so that people are intimidated. Plain and simple. Remember this, the system works the way it was designed...to fleece you!

Dunno, corporate lawyers are the worst of the worst. Check out all the intellectual property lawsuits and pattent lawsuits flying around. It is just pure madness.

[wretchedotis]

Don't fool yourself.
If you have the means to hire a lawyer, you should.

You cannot argue that being self-represented is anything but a distinct disadvantage.

[staysingle]

I would agree, with criminal lawyers and corporate lawyers. Family court is a circus if you will. A good lawyer will expertly fill and file your paperwork on time. Family law lawyers have access to powerful software, such as divorce-mate, that if we had access to would make self rep a breeze.

We need access to the same software they do.

They ( the lawyers and judges) make the process over the top complex so that people are intimidated. Plain and simple. Remember this, the system works the way it was designed...to fleece you!

[staysingle]

No I don't, sorry

[LakeErie]

And check into this forum often! Getting different opinions based on experience is paramount for success.

I would caution you about seeking fairness in family court. Family court is war ! and I gained more insight and advantage reading Sun Tzu the " Art of War" than gained reading canLII.

Good for you taking this on yourself.

Yes, Check back with this site often!

BTW, do you have a link where we can download the "Art of War" in pdf?

[wretchedotis]

If one is open and honest and lucky enough that BOTH parties can join this site, any issues they have can possible be resolved here with one or both of them getting a free reality check.

That would be AWESOME.
I know one ex in particular that sure could use a reality check.
Someone invite her... her email is...lol...oh, nvm.
Can't change the mindset of a rock.
It just wants to sit there all day regardless of what you say.
Stupid rock.

[staysingle]

And check into this forum often! Getting different opinions based on experience is paramount for success.

I would caution you about seeking fairness in family court. Family court is war ! and I gained more insight and advantage reading Sun Tzu the " Art of War" than gained reading canLII.

Good for you taking this on yourself.

[LakeErie]

There is a lawyer's premier I read somewhere that goes like this:

If you don't have the law, you argue the facts; If you don't have the facts, you argue the law; If you don't have either the facts or the law, you argue the constitution.

I have been preparing for a legal battle for shared custody. I am not there yet but right now I'm seriously considering self-representing myself.

I have met up with two lawyers for initial consultations. They have said pretty much the same as what I had already known, with the laws and rules that I learned from this site.

The way I see this is, lawyers are trained to be lawyers, they have the knowledge and know the rules, know how the court system operates. But on the other hand, we are the leading-role actor, the story is about US, no one knows better our personal stories than ourselves. We have the ingredients - the facts, as long as we know how to package and present the case, we will have a better chance.

So get the facts organized, do the research, read the law, make a few trips to the courthouse to see the settings. I'm hoping that the system will treat us fairly.