Any success with Non-Removal Orders?

[ProudMomof3]

I'm seeking a non-removal order. It's actually even more important to me than sole custody. I have very valid reasons for believing that if my ex was granted permission to take our kids overseas to visit his family, that he would not return with them. While the countries he would want to visit are part of the Hague, they can only enforce it if they can find him. He has duel citizenship, and has hundreds of relatives who would not think twice about helping him. He speaks the language, he has job connections, family, the ability to work in any European country. Aside from our kids, he has nothing keeping him here. I have had to listen to him moan about how moving to Canada was the biggest mistake he ever made, how Canada is so far behind in social issues, education, etc.

He never showed real interest in taking them there during the entire time we were married, other than a passing "It would be nice if we could go back to visit one day". Within weeks of me telling him I was done with our marriage, he demanded the kids' birth certificates and told me he was taking them back to his country in a few weeks, because his mother had six months to live (this was a year and a half ago).

My feeling is, it will not hurt or damage the children if they don't visit his homeland until they are teenagers (if they wish to go). They don't know his family, his family has never taken an interest in them, his "dying mother" has never acknowledged their existence (nor my ex's for over 20 years), and they don't even speak the language. No harm or risk will come to them by NOT going overseas until they are older. If his family wants to see and speak to them, Skype works perfectly well, and planes fly both ways.

Has anyone ever been successful in getting a non-removal order? If I am granted one, I will feel about 99% better about the kids being with him on extended visits. Last night when I called them to tell them to have fun camping this week, I found that his home number had been disconnected and he never told me. My first thought, was that he cancelled it because he knows he won't be needing it. It's a terrible feeling.

[May_May]

I don't have any experience but wanted to acknowledge your worries/fears. My ex could also do the same. Have you been able to copy or write down any of his contact information from phonebooks/journals he had ? could you try to get as much of that as well in case needed ? Is offering to go with them an option ?

[Pursuinghappiness]

Lol

I have had to listen to him moan about how moving to Canada was the biggest mistake he ever made

Gee this sounds familiar. Hey, are we all married to the same guy?

One thing I'm planning to do (pending advice back from my lawyer) is contact Canadian Immigration to try to ensure she can't be taken through immigration, ie across the Canada/US border, since I haven't given my permission to do so and won't until we have a custody access order in place.

Again, I'm waiting for my lawyer's advice..but I would imagine that its within my rights to do so.

I'm not sure if you could ask about the same...but airport immigration has to be cleared and if there's an objection on file with immigration due to a pending divorce, I'd imagine the kids would get detained if he tried to get them removed from the country.

[NBDad]

Call the US border services and explain the situation to them. I had to do so during my litigation as I found a "plan" written by my ex to "hit the road" with the kids.

The agent would neither confirm nor deny the existence of a database of such things, but we were assured that if the ex attempted to take the kids across the border without a consent to travel letter and a valid court order, the kids would be held at the border for someone to come and get them. Stays in effect for 6 months.

Then do the same with the Canadian Border services and make sure you either have control of the kid passports, or call the passport office and put a note on their system. If the kids do NOT already have passports, he'd need your consent AND your signature to get them. (If he tries to forge your signature and you have a note on file with them, they're supposed to contact you directly to confirm you were the one filling the form out)

THEN bring up your concerns in court and ask that the kids passports stay with you, that there is a non removal order in effect from Canada, due to your fears he is a flight risk with them.

[ProudMomof3]

I was under the impression that unless I had a court order, I couldn't have them flag anything. I wouldn't give him the birth certificates when he demanded them, but I know they'll issue them to him since he's the father. I have contacted the consulate of his come country, migration services and Missing Children Society of Canada. None of them said I could contact border services without an order. I just did what they suggested and took pictures of them, of scars and birthmarks and a video of them talking.

He was only ever in contact with two of his relatives....his brother who is a raging alcoholic (as is most of his family), as well as a cousin who visited with us several times. I could only contact her. While she said she was so happy to hear from me and that she wanted to remain friends, she also said she'd take care of my kids when they're there. When I said I was trying to fight him taking them there and why, I suddenly no longer heard from her.

Hearing all these stories on the forum about never having been asked for custody papers or notarized permission notes from the other parent, makes me really nervous.

I realize he needs my permission for passports, but I don't put anything past him anymore. I just pray the OCL and judge take my concerns seriously.

[Pursuinghappiness]

Court order or not...you are not supposed to take a child across the border without both parents consent. He is supposed to get a certified letter from you to do so...so you can certainly contact immigration to tell them that you have not provided consent and heighten their awareness in case he does try to cross the border.

That being said, immigration isn't perfect and often lets people go through the border that don't have the required documentation.

What Do I Need to Know about Crossing the Canada / U.S. Border with Children

Even if you are not divorced from the child's other parent, bring the other parent's written permission to take the child over the border. Include contact information so border guard can call the other parent if necessary.

[Pursuinghappiness]

By the way..here is the form required and the text from the form.

Child Travel Consent Form (Canada) Form - LawDepot.com

<H4 id=__QGTravelArrangements_title>Travel Arrangements

<LABEL class=que>Child will be travelling:</LABEL> <SELECT id=__travelType_in name=ctl00$Content$ctrlQuestions$ctl03$ctl02> <OPTION id=__travelType__0 selected value=jointCustody>With one parent/guardian who does NOT have sole custody</OPTION><OPTION id=__travelType__1 value=soleCustody>With one parent/guardian who has sole custody</OPTION><OPTION id=__travelType__2 value=organization>With an organization/group</OPTION><OPTION id=__travelType__3 value=noCustody>With an adult who is NOT a parent or guardian</OPTION><OPTION id=__travelType__4 value=alone>Alone</OPTION></SELECT>
It is rare that one parent will be given the sole power of decision making to the exclusion of the other parent. "Sole custody" means that only one parent/guardian has the right to make decisions affecting the child (e.g., schooling, health care, etc.). "Joint custody" means that both parents have the right to participate in making these kinds of decisions. Parents may have joint custody even if the child resides with only one parent.

In other words, every person who has a legal right to make decision on behalf of the child has to sign the travel consent, if that person will not be traveling with the child.

</H4>

[NBDad]

I was under the impression that unless I had a court order, I couldn't have them flag anything

I had an INTERIM (temp) order only when I called them up and did all that. You don't need a court order to have them flagged. The flag is trumped by having all the proper documentation on hand. The only thing flagging them at the border should do is mean they'll actually ASK for it.

If it's legit, they'll ask for it, it'll be produced and he continues on his way. If he doesn't have it on hand, they'll refuse to allow the kids across.

[MiViLaLoco]

I will feel about 99% better about the kids being with him on extended visits. Last night when I called them to tell them to have fun camping this week, I found that his home number had been disconnected and he never told me. My first thought, was that he cancelled it because he knows he won't be needing it. It's a terrible feeling.

I actually had chills run down my spine when I read that!

Intead of questioning what you should have...or shouldn't have...and what you should do...or shouldn't do...

Just do the following immediately:

Call - Canadian Immigration...give them your information
Call - US Border Services...give them your information
Call - Canadian Border Services...give them your information

Continue to call the departments / organizations you have already contacted from your previous message "contacted the consulate of his come country, migration services and Missing Children Society of Canada"

Explain to them that he has your children...has disconnected his phone...and is in the process of fleeing with your children...if he hasn't already. That his cousin (from that country) has confimed to you over the phone that she'll be looking after the children when they're there...and you have not given permission for them to leave the country!!!!!!!

If possible, go to his residence...or contact his landlord...to see if he has given notice...or if he is still residing there.

Contact any mutual friends you may still have...or any of his own personal friends (if you have that information).

Call his place of employment...and ask in a tactful way as to when he is returning to work, or if he has left their employ.

Whatever you do...do not be passive about this...or you may be waiting till your children are actually old enough to return to you on their own.

Do not rely on the Court System to stop this for you...or a court order...

DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN NOW!!!!!!

[mcdreamy]

I have to agree, you do need to be proactive here.

I have a daughter from my previous marriage, separated when she was one. She and I have travelled everywhere across borders for vacations, throughout the carribbean, Europe, etc. I always had his notarized consent for each trip, but I have only been asked once out of at least 20 border crossings that we have done for proof of his consent.

I wouldn't rely on the border guards.

I'm sorry you are in this situation, it shouldn't be something you have to worry about when separating.

[Tayken]

There are no boarder exit strategies in Canada. It is up to the receiving country to insure that your children are not removed without consent or a court order. There are several proposals being made by parents whom have lost contact with their children making recommendations to government to resolve this problem.

Sorry to be the one to point this out.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[raven70]

court order

I did not get one when I should have and friends and family told me to.
If you have doubts, head to court. Differnet countries,provinces is a
huge hurtle. Get the Court Order.

[ProudMomof3]

Thank you everyone. As I said, my stress mainly comes from this fear of abduction. If I wasn't worried about that, I wouldn't be freaking out every time I can't get hold of my kids. My feeling is, my ex never paid his phone bill and it was cut off (he has collectors after him on a monthly basis). He knows, however, that I worry about him fleeing with my kids, and he enjoys it. He told me he would have his phones on from 6 until 8, so I could call the kids, but of course, he wouldn't answer the phone until my fourth try, and I had to call his work phone. Then when he picked up, he wouldn't say anything, so for three minutes, I heard nothing but people talking in the background, while I'm assuming, he was looking for my son. Then he just handed him the phone without saying anything.

Thankfully, they are at a campsite, so I feel better. I told the kids I wouldn't call them tonight, because I hate feeling intrusive. I will call again on Thursday, to make sure they're still at the campsite.

I've done as one of the investigators with the Missing Children Society told me, and I taught my son how to dial emergency services if he's ever overseas. My son is 11 and knows that he should never be at an airport unles I've told him he should be. We have an emergency word in case he feels he's in trouble or in danger.

I'm going to try calling Passport services and border services. The worst they can do is tell me there's nothing they can do. Part of my case for the OCL includes a non-removal order, but I don't know how seriously they're taking it. I would love to get in touch with Stephen Watkins, whose kids were abducted by his wife and taken back to Poland two years ago. He also warned people he feared she would take the kids and no one took him seriously either. You would think the government would make an effort to protect Canadian children from parents with dual citizenship. Kids will survive if they don't travel. I'm willing to abide by a non-removal order also, even if that means I can never take the kids on a holiday until they're teenagers. It's a small price to pay for their safety.

[Tayken]

Thank you everyone. As I said, my stress mainly comes from this fear of abduction. If I wasn't worried about that, I wouldn't be freaking out every time I can't get hold of my kids. My feeling is, my ex never paid his phone bill and it was cut off (he has collectors after him on a monthly basis).

This fear is rooted in an anxiety. It isn't wrong to worry about this possibility but, how you manage and react to the situation is where you have to be careful. (See note below.)

He knows, however, that I worry about him fleeing with my kids, and he enjoys it.

Have your solicitor notify him that should your children be removed from the country without your consent you will immediately begin proceedings. This may help you manage your anxiety over the possibility. It may give you some comfort that your views have been expressed and that you are willing to act.

He told me he would have his phones on from 6 until 8, so I could call the kids, but of course, he wouldn't answer the phone until my fourth try, and I had to call his work phone. Then when he picked up, he wouldn't say anything, so for three minutes, I heard nothing but people talking in the background, while I'm assuming, he was looking for my son. Then he just handed him the phone without saying anything.

Don't gas light yourself in these matters. It is probably better not to talk to the other parent. You were calling to talk to your child. You may want to have your solicitor send over a letter outlining some rules around calls and times and making your children available.

Thankfully, they are at a campsite, so I feel better. I told the kids I wouldn't call them tonight, because I hate feeling intrusive. I will call again on Thursday, to make sure they're still at the campsite.

Call to talk to your children. Don't call to "check where they are". It will only feed into your anxiety in the matter.

I've done as one of the investigators with the Missing Children Society told me, and I taught my son how to dial emergency services if he's ever overseas. My son is 11 and knows that he should never be at an airport unles I've told him he should be. We have an emergency word in case he feels he's in trouble or in danger.

Statistically speaking, your son's age is way too old for parental abduction. Not saying it doesn't happen at that age but, statistically speaking it is very low. So hopefully that helps you.

I'm going to try calling Passport services and border services. The worst they can do is tell me there's nothing they can do.

I would have your solicitor do this call. They can get a travel alert processed. It is quite standard.

Part of my case for the OCL includes a non-removal order, but I don't know how seriously they're taking it. I would love to get in touch with Stephen Watkins, whose kids were abducted by his wife and taken back to Poland two years ago.

Contact Stephen through his website. He is very active in the community and helps many parents. I have seen him speak on several occasions. Although don't expect to reduce your anxiety as his story is very sad and demonstrates the holes in the system in Canada.

He also warned people he feared she would take the kids and no one took him seriously either. You would think the government would make an effort to protect Canadian children from parents with dual citizenship.

No exit strategy. That is the problem. There is no pre-boarder check by Canada leaving the country.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[ProudMomof3]

Thank you very much, Tayken. I've been in therapy to help deal with my anxiety and how I react to situations. I know that his major reason for doing what he does, is to get me to react. He knows the best way to hurt me is through my kids, and that's what he does.

Stephen's story is horrible. One of my ex-co-workers was the teacher that had to hand the children over to the grandfather the day their mother abducted them. She had no choice, as it was a court order. She says she still has nightmares from that day. I can't imagine anything worse than the thought of possibly never seeing your children again

I do feel somewhat comforted that my son is the age that he is, and I hope that if ever he's in that situation, he'll speak up. I'm more concerned about my 6 year old daughter. She would be terrified, but she also has an anxiety disorder called Selective Mutism, so the chances of her speaking up or asking for help, are next to none.

I don't get why proper precautions aren't taken at borders, to prevent these abductions. How many could be prevented, simply by asking for letters of consent and checking with the other parent.