Spousal Support request. Agree or fight in court?

[locoroco]

Hi,

Just a quick note on the circumstances.

Married for 6 months, lived together for 14 months before that. Split up the beginning of March. She made around 60k a year when we split up, i made 165k. She is pregnant and is due in late November. She did not sacrifice her career for mine and we both worked full time and still do. She is asking for 500 a month in Spousal support indefinitely. Obviously there is no way in hell im paying indefinitely, but im trying to decide if its worth giving her some for a while vs going to court over it.

Scenarios i can think of:

1) pay her the 500 but put an end date of Dec 31,2012. I would think that 18 months of support would be more than enough based on the length we cohabited. After that i would say she has no leg to stand on to try and get any more out of me.

2) Agree to nothing and let it go to court. Now my concern with this is that a judge may order me to pay a lot more than 200 a month based on what I make/made. She will be off work on maternity leave for almost all of 2012 and i am thinking that a judge will award her something because of that situation.

What are you thoughts? Does she have a chance to get even more spousal out of me?

I figure that it might cost me as much as the spousal just to fight this keeping in mind that the support is tax deductible. Im at a point where i would rather give the money to a lawyer than see her get any but I do not want to risk to be court ordered to pay even more than she is asking, so im afraid to tell her to pound sand.

We have yet to agree to splitting up our marital assets and my other request is she sign off on her dower rights on the house i purchased prior to being married so i can put it up for sale. That is the one thing i was going to ask for beside there being an end date of 18 months from now if i do agree to the 500.

Thanks in advance.

[WorkingDAD]

Does it meant that child related issues are settled? You did not mentioned it in your post.


I would worry about that one. I do not see any possibilities for her to even be entitled for SS.

[locoroco]

As of right now she refuses to talk about child support and custody because the child is not even born yet. I know we can enter into an agreement before hand but she is being extremely extremely difficult to work with.

Why do you feel she has no entitlement for SS. With a 100k difference in wage and her going to be off work on maternity leave, doesn't that leave me open to some sort of payment? From the research i can gather it seems quite likely she could get something.

I should add that we have yet to split up our assets. I was going to make her a cash offer in a couple of weeks but she sprung this request from her lawyer to mine. I am not sure what to do with this. I am extremely worried that if i dont agree to helping her out that she will be able to be awarded much more a month by the courts.

[Mess]

In a short marriage spousal support would be for .5 years for every year of marriage/relationship.

I'm not clear on the laws in Alberta regarding common law but if you were in Ontario the months you lived together before marriage would not count in these circumstances. According to Ontario law you would need to live together for 3 years, or be raising a child together if less. Since you are not raising the child together, there would be no entitlement for spousal support under Ontario law. Again, the laws in Alberta are likely different, but there is not a clear claim for spousal support for these reasons.

Secondly, she did not lose anything career wise during the relationship, this is also a factor in determining whether spousal support is an entitlement. Spousal support is not an automatic right just because one spouse earns more, or one spouse spent time on mat leave. I also suspect she will get EI benefits or company benefits while on leave?

If you agree to pay her spousal support of any amount then you are agreeing to her entitlement which puts at risk for her seeking more. It is not a good ideal to admit entitlement, especially where there appears to be none. Child support is a different story, it is automatic, but spousal must be shown and she has not shown it, but if you admit entitlement then she doesn't have to show it in the future. Remember that you would be signing a sworn agreement agreeing to her entitlement.

You could give her some additional funds to carry her over and call it something else, but if it were me I would not admit entitlement to spousal support.

Indefinate support for this length of relationship is absolutely absurd, you should just laugh at this.

Regarding the custody and support for the child, she is being ridiculous. To some extent there is a chance that the child may be stillborn, but there is really no reason not to negotiate a custody and support agreement ahead of time.

If it were me, I would make sure I had a reasonable offer in play. This protects you from paying costs if this goes to trial later. A reasonable offer would be to pay table amount of child support beginning when the child is born. At your income level this would be significantly more than $500 per month. She doesn't need support until she begins mat leave when the child is born, so it is ridiculous for her to expect you to start paying spousal support immediately anyway. She is earning more than enough to support herself.

Your offer should also include your view on custody arrangements and a parenting plan. If she wants to ignore the offer and sit on it for months until the baby is born, that is her problem.

If it were me I would ignore her stupid request for spousal and make an offer that was "by the book" and begin my financial disclosure and the equalization calculations. For a short marriage there should not be much in the way of equalization other than the matrimonial home.

[HammerDad]

Regarding the custody and support for the child, she is being ridiculous. To some extent there is a chance that the child may be stillborn, but there is really no reason not to negotiate a custody and support agreement ahead of time.

Any agreement entered into prior to the child being born are not enforcible, as told to me by various lawyers when I discussed this with them when my ex and I were splitting up.

You can negotiate various issues and put them to paper for an agreement after the child is born, as it can save time.

[Mess]

Any agreement entered into prior to the child being born are not enforcible, as told to me by various lawyers when I discussed this with them when my ex and I were splitting up.

You can negotiate various issues and put them to paper for an agreement after the child is born, as it can save time.

True but two reasonable people can begin to negotiate and come to an arrangement. They can sign it and notarize it immediately after the birth. The mother-to-be is refusing to discuss it until the baby is born, which would leave the situation at square one. They could (in theory if both were reasonable) come to an agreement now and have a signed notarized agreement in place the day after the birth.

To me, this is simply a sign that there little likelyhood of actual negotiations taking place. Having an offer on the table along with a reasonable parenting plan as a suggestion is to show a willingness to co-operate and negotiate. That should go for both sides. That the mother is refusing to discuss it will work against her; the father shouldn't make the same mistake. Have it on record that you tried early to achieve a reasonable settlement and parenting arrangement.

[Mominneed]

I disagree about the entitlement for SS. In my case, my x is seeking SS for a 4-year marriage and on CC judge has suggested that I must pay because of the wage difference only between 2-4 years. X made absolutely no sacrifices to his career for me and is actually much better off after marriage so to me there is no entitlement. Who knows what could happen at trial but I'm 2 years into this ridiculous process so it wasn't really worth the fight (albeit we have MANY more issues on the table). Discuss with a lawyer. The fact that she is going on maternity leave shortly I feel, puts you in an bad position for SS. I thought the period of co-habitation did count towards calculation of SS in Ontario but I'm no expert. If this is the only issue, maybe a settlement would be your best move and the least emotionally draining.

Get an agreement on custody/access as soon as possible though. This is more important than any of the other issues.

[locoroco]

She is completely unreasonable to deal with and it sure seems like she expects everything but offers nothing in return.

First off to my knowledge, Alberta uses cohabitation period as well to determine length of spousal support.

The problem is that in Alberta at least the money I am making up until we sign a separation agreement is part of the marital assets. She has verbally agreed to the start of March as our separation date, but without that in some sort of legal document she can come after the money I make after that and the longer she drags her feet the more she will get in an equalization payment. A lot of the time I am making 5000-5500 after taxes every two weeks so as you can see the longer this drags on she will end up with even more than that spousal support she is asking for.

As for the child, I would love to have shared custody with her but I am not holding my breath on that. Combine that with the fact that i am not sure if I am able to transfer to where she is moving just before she gives birth, im not sure if its going to be possible for me. I will be taking a huge pay cut to move closer to the child as right now I work in northern alberta and work a substantial amount of overtime. I do not wish to continue to do that forever, it has a serious effect on trying to maintain a normal social life now, not to mention balancing seeing a child in there too. I was merely up here trying to get some money together to give my family a better life. That didnt happen so i would like to get out, but I dont really want to be broke just because of the things this women did to me.

yes she will have maternity leave. In fact, she works for part of the federal government that will allow her to get a top up of her wages to 93% of her normal income for a period of one year. After that she can take up to 5 years off, not lose her position and if she choses to not go back to work then she would have to repay the top up. If she goes back to work then she would have to work a year in order for her not to have to pay that money back. She tells me that she does not want to go back to the job because she hated it, but thats not really my problem, other than her running a day home will cut down on my section 7 expenses.

It boils down to this. I can pretty much guarantee she is going to force me to pay table child support based on my past income. So that would be about 1500 a month, even if I move down close to the child and take a 70k cut in pay a year. If i was to pay based on the 70k less it would be about 800 a month. So with my take home wage working no overtime at 2100 every two weeks and her EI benefits, employee top up and 1500 child support would put her two week earnings at closer to the 2700 dollar range, which would be 600 more every two weeks than I make! Thats not even including the 500 if i agree to it.

I know it seems that based on what my plan is for work for when the kid is born and what she will be making on maternity leave, that she would be entitled to no spousal support. The problem is that the longer this drags on, she will end up getting more than that by riding on my back while i work 15 hr days up north. So i was thinking of just giving her the money but put an end date of 18 months from now in hopes to expedite us finally signing a separation agreement based on the marital assets.

As a final note, my lawyer said it would be worth paying her the 500(he is going to try for 400) but put an end date on it which is long enough that no judge would ever grant her money any longer than that. I just dont want to set some sort of ridiculous precedence that she can come after me for more later. Is that possible?

[staysingle]

Your instincts and research are sound. You need to navigate extraordinarily well. The next year or so will be legally treacherous for you!

Family court is not a venue any man wishes to find himself in. The pro feminine biases amongst Judges are profound. Try and drop the attitude that " if she doesn't agree I will take her to court". Why do you think they (she) suggested spousal support for life on a marriage that in many Provinces would NOT even trigger SS. The answer is simple..they (she) want this to go in front of a Judge, her lawyer would be encouraging this. Everybody (all the players associated with our family court industry) are sharpening their knives with you. You earn an income in the top .5% of Canadian Adults. They will all try their best to bleed you dry and THEY are experts at this!.

What I suggest to you is this:
1) You wouldn't be posting here if not for the fact she is 4 months pregnant ( what I mean by this is she wouldn't have any claims or hooks ( maybe a couple of property issues) into you if not for the baby arriving in NOV.) She knows this. ERGO.… she will garner phenomenal support from the courts being pregnant at this time. DON"T FORGET THIS!
2) Get a lawyer to plug in all the elements into the Divorce-mate software. This will show where you stand, reasonably.
3) Get your property issues and equalization issues resolved first. You can't determine spousal before these issues are settled anyway.
4) Give her a lump sum of about $10 - $15 K over and above equalization and in return she signs off spousal support. DO NOT refer to this amount as SS...ever!
5) Before you can realize, lawyers will peel you for $50- $100 k and you will be standing on the same ground. THis is what they do for a living and they are world class at this, DON'T FORGET THIS..EVER! You can't be penny wise and pound foolish dealing with family law as a man. Back to the offer I am suggesting of $10- $15K to sign off SS. At your salary, lawyers will chew this amount up in a month or less and you won't be anywhere near a settlement! If you can use this amount to get SS resolution and stay away from a Judge then this is genius< That is what I mean by penny foolish and pound wise!
Good luck to you and move carefully!

[WorkingDAD]

Your instincts and research are sound. You need to navigate extraordinarily well. The next year or so will be legally treacherous for you!

Family court is not a venue any man wishes to find himself in. The pro feminine biases amongst Judges are profound. Try and drop the attitude that " if she doesn't agree I will take her to court". Why do you think they (she) suggested spousal support for life on a marriage that in many Provinces would NOT even trigger SS. The answer is simple..they (she) want this to go in front of a Judge, her lawyer would be encouraging this. Everybody (all the players associated with our family court industry) are sharpening their knives with you. You earn an income in the top .5% of Canadian Adults. They will all try their best to bleed you dry and THEY are experts at this!.

What I suggest to you is this:
1) You wouldn't be posting here if not for the fact she is 4 months pregnant ( what I mean by this is she wouldn't have any claims or hooks ( maybe a couple of property issues) into you if not for the baby arriving in NOV.) She knows this. ERGO.… she will garner phenomenal support from the courts being pregnant at this time. DON"T FORGET THIS!
2) Get a lawyer to plug in all the elements into the Divorce-mate software. This will show where you stand, reasonably.
3) Get your property issues and equalization issues resolved first. You can't determine spousal before these issues are settled anyway.
4) Give her a lump sum of about $10 - $15 K over and above equalization and in return she signs off spousal support. DO NOT refer to this amount as SS...ever!
5) Before you can realize, lawyers will peel you for $50- $100 k and you will be standing on the same ground. THis is what they do for a living and they are world class at this, DON'T FORGET THIS..EVER! You can't be penny wise and pound foolish dealing with family law as a man. Back to the offer I am suggesting of $10- $15K to sign off SS. At your salary, lawyers will chew this amount up in a month or less and you won't be anywhere near a settlement! If you can use this amount to get SS resolution and stay away from a Judge then this is genius< That is what I mean by penny foolish and pound wise!
Good luck to you and move carefully!

well said, staysingle

I would also recommend to read some books like courts from Hell and Tug of War

[locoroco]

What would be the reason it is better to give her extra money on top of the equalization value vs me giving her some monthly SS with a set end date?

My original plan was to offer her a lump sum above what she would get and i was going to request a few things that i thought were fairly reasonable.

She sign off on spousal, she agree to allow me to pay CS based on what i make at the time the child is born (about 100k a year) not on what i made working up north before. I never got a chance to do that though because they sprung my lawyer the request for spousal support.

I should add i offered to give her 500 a month only if she plays fair with regards to this divorce, IE i do not want it to go to court. I started that this month. Nothing signed for this, just a text saying im trying to help her out and trying so hard to try and start some sort of friendly relationship with someone i am going to have to share a child with. I know that with a child, women can use that kid as a weapon, and she knows that me being a father and being a huge part of this kids life means more than anything in the world to me.

[staysingle]

Locoroco,
In my experience, which is all I can offer you, family court in Canada is not a justice system but rather a legal system. What you think is fair has nothing to do with anything, sadly. What a judge thinks is all that matters. If you take matters to court you need to be aware the deck is stacked against you.

She doesn't have to play fair my friend. Going to court is where she and her lawyer wish to be with you. She also earns ample income to keep the flames of litigation flaring for years to come,

Spousal support is not a clear concept like impaired driving for instance. To keep this explanation short, spousal support is "up there" with "best interests of the child". A judge has tremendous latitude in the awards and decisions, in fact they can operate and decide SS issues with no accountability. This is a fact!
The problem with proposing an end date for SS is that she can still present in court at that time and request SS be continued. People do win these requests, in fact many lawyers are against clients offering lump sum prepayments for spousal for this reason ( The Supreme Court has supported this).
By giving her monthly SS payments you are setting a precedent that may be difficult to reverse. However, if you give to her what amounts to the same if not a better financial amount equivalent to a monthly $500 a month SS payment you avoid a SS precedent with her, thereby dramatically reducing your risk. Her SS position going into this is weak (6 month marriage), however she is pregnant and will have full support of the courts. To get through this in one piece offer the money up front and call it "I'm such a great guy".

Get your property and equalization determined pronto. Take this to court if necessary!
You also need to pay attention to child support issues brewing!

[shellshocked22]

Just my two cents....

-ask around for references and talk to a GOOD family law lawyer. Like everything else, just because they have a "Licensce" doesn't mean they are good. It would be well worth spending $1,000 or so to get a legal opinion in your case. EAch case is unique. Personally, I would then get a 2nd opinion. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish. Keep in mind none of us here (that I'm aware of lol) are lawyers. Yes, going to court should be avoided if possible but in my opinion getting a solid legal opinion on your situation is money well spent by speaking with a GOOD family law lawyer (or two) for a few hours of their time.

-there is little doubt the system has blatant and subtle biases against men. Given she's pregnant, you're even MORE "underwater" before you even open your mouth in court

-be very careful about working a lot of overtime. Each case is unique but in ONtario anyway, if you show a pattern of making "X" dollars and it suddenly drops after divorce stuff hits the fan, courts might "impute" you the shortfall. Again, talk to your lawyer.

-the idea of Precedent regarding spousal is a good one; again ask your lawyer. However, if not a concern, given the relatively small amount we're talking and the fact its tax deductible, might be further ahead being a LITTLE "generous" to get her to sign off on it (ie. lock in the amount and more importantly the duration - as stated earlier even if you have to pay it given short time of relationship shouldn't be that long a duration (ie. .5 to 1 year for each year together). You don't want to go to court in my opinion given your situation; especially if she's pregnant and you make good $$$$. Bird in the hand my friend......

-child support will be your bigger expense by far especially given your income. Since you indicated you want to be a big part of the child's life, go for 50% custody if possible. This might be tricky with a baby though.... Note if you don't get it "now", given "status quo" you might never get it later. Also, with her decent income, your CS payments would be "offset" by what her table amount would be.

-my biggest piece of advise is talk to a lawyer to confirm BUT double check on your own (here and other sites). I've found few lawyers really work for you, they just want a quick settlement and pay day and move on. They are OK for telling you what you can and can't do, but you will often have to ask the questions; don't assume they'll go out of their way for you.

[shellshocked22]

Forgot to mention re my comments above. HER income with regard to CS would only be "offset" from YOUR CS payments IF you got 40-50% custody. Less than that, (at least my understanding) is that her income is then irrelevent with respect to your paying full table amounts

[billm]

...she agree to allow me to pay CS based on what i make at the time the child is born (about 100k a year) not on what i made working up north before.
...

NEVER put an amount for CS in an agreement. ONLY put in the method for determining CS and extraordinary expenses (medical, dental, etc). ONLY agree that CS shall be based on the CS tables and your income from the previous year, according to your CRA NOA, and automatically adjusted July 1st of each year.

This is the only fair method for determining CS and I would expect that that is what a judge would order if you requested it.

Make sure your CS agreement clearly states when CS will terminate, and how post secondary school will be paid for.

If you obtain 50/50 access, then adjust CS according to the set off method.

As a father, as a parent, I would never agree to anything other than 50/50, however my situation is different as I was living with my 3 kids up to 10 years before split. You should not have to fight for 50/50, she should as a respectable parent, treat you as an equal - but sadly that does not happen all the time.