Pushed up against a wall...

[Tayken]

Still looking for the decision I was talking about. I have it in an email thread somewhere and looking it up on CanLII as an alternative. It would be a big help for you. As well, I have only seen it used by fathers and it would be GREAT to see a mother use the same decision.

Now, for opening up communications. Based on your statements a really good option is Our Family Wizard. There is a cost but, everything is tracked. Think of it as one long running managed affidavit. So, if your ex does spout off the way you say he does... The best place to capture it and manage communications.

There is another service similar. I think OurSocialWorker.Com promotes it. It may be more "Canadian" in nature. I have seen OFW in action. Very well done.

Sorry about not finding the decision yet. I have piles of research all over my desk. It used to be on top of the pile but, I just can't seem to find it.

Good Luck!

Sorry... It is yoursocialworker.com not "oursocialworker.com".

[Tayken]

You can agree to almost anything you want, and the judge's DO have discretion pertaining to unique situations. I haven't heard of that case, so if you can find it, please share as I would be very interested in reviewing it.

CanLII - 2010 ONSC 2867 (CanLII)

Paragraph 11 of the decision:

[11] Commencing as of May 1st, 2010, there will be temporary basic child support pursuant to the Ontario Child Support Guidelines up to the trial. The amounts will be proportionate to each parent’s income. Given that the parties are sharing access equally with Matthews, the child support will be calculated as follows:

1. Applicant’s annual wage is: $46,500.00 with guideline value of $425.00 per month.

2. Respondent’s annual wage is: $96,665.00 with guideline value of $861.00 per month.

3. Applicant pays ½ of her $425.00 which equals $212.50 per month.

4. Respondent pays ½ of his $861.00 which equals $430.00 per month.

5. Respondent pays the overall difference of: $430.00 - $212.50 = $217.50 per month.

CITATION: Tang v. Ma, 2010 ONSC 2867
COURT FILE NO.: 42573-09
DATE: 2010-05-17

CanLII - 2010 ONSC 2867 (CanLII)

Challenge with this is that it is for intern child support to be recalculated at trial. But, there are two cases on appeal sighting this decision from what I can tell with this as a basis of case law. Some judges love the decision some balk at it. The numbers look perfect to me and reasonable.

I ordered the continuing record for the other cases but I haven't had time to go in and review all the materials... yet.

Again, it is up to the judge but, it is a very creative view of CS on a 50/50 in a high conflict case.

Good Luck!

[Mess]

One of the main issues I've just realized and mentioned earlier this morning was subsidy. Both daycares cost 1700$ a month. I secured a subsidy, on the basis of being the primary caregiver on 1 income, for our daughter so the cost has gone down to 1000$ with the potiential to go down to about 200$ when I secure a spot for our son. If we get shared custody we will lose this subsidy.

You need to check and double check this before you go to town on it.

His income is lower than yours. Subsidy is provide on a scale. If your income alone will drop daycare all the way to $200 per month then your combined incomes won't be enough to eliminate it completely. You would probably be looking at $400 instead of $200.

I would also say that you are playing with fire if you go to court and try to base a claim of full custody on the fact that you get a daycare subsidy.

The rules may be different based on your location, but make sure you know what you are talking about here. Saying "I just realized" doesn't sound like you've researched it.

[Tayken]

You need to check and double check this before you go to town on it.

His income is lower than yours. Subsidy is provide on a scale. If your income alone will drop daycare all the way to $200 per month then your combined incomes won't be enough to eliminate it completely. You would probably be looking at $400 instead of $200.

I would also say that you are playing with fire if you go to court and try to base a claim of full custody on the fact that you get a daycare subsidy.

The rules may be different based on your location, but make sure you know what you are talking about here. Saying "I just realized" doesn't sound like you've researched it.

Mess is correct. Court is a dangerous place to argue out these details. Mediation would be a much more cost effective path on these issues. Also, if you don't have a solicitor I would get one because they will walk you through most of this too.

Also, what happens if your ex proposes a care provider (say family) that can do the job of daycare at no expense but, it happens out of his home? Are you going to push daycare still? 50-50 on daycare is a hard argument when one parent doesn't require it or can provide family for all the care.

[dadtotheend]

Fishy, very fishy.

[dorano]

Fishy, very fishy.

Oh no what ever shall I do without your acceptance...


Thanks everyone! Tons of really good ideas, lots of really good perspective and great points brought up. My head seems a lot more in order now and able to tackle the task at hand.

It so happens I received today a revision of the draft agreement we came up with in mediation, and other than a ridiculous Christmas arrangement, it all seems quite workable, and he is actually proposing to maintain status quo with regards to custody arrangements and pay full CS amounts and his share of daycare expenses. Trying to work on that while still taking care of court forms as recommended just in case...

[LostFather]

Breastfeeding is a horrible argument and stay away from it. Case law has already been set and even Dr. Jack Newman himself tried to testify as an expert witness regarding the matter.

To quote the wise Justice Quinn:

[3] The petitioner may have an honestly held and well-intentioned theory on breastfeeding. This breastfeeding however must come to an end at some point. The petitioner in an earlier affidavit indicated that she intended to breastfeed until at least the child was two years of age. Dr. Newman’s letter indicates that pediatrics recommend breastfeeding for at least a year with no upper limit. The petitioner will have breastfed for two years beyond the minimum recommended. This child is not an appendage of the petitioner. The child will very shortly have to leave the petitioner for day care, junior kindergarten and other outside relationships. It is important for the child’s good that she learn to adapt outside of the petitioner’s constant attention. The petitioner should therefore end breastfeeding over the next four months and the child should then experience overnight access with the respondent.

CanLII - 2003 CanLII 2121 (ON S.C.)

I agree the social/interactions of daycare is paramount in my opinion.

[Tayken]

I agree the social/interactions of daycare is paramount in my opinion.

Arguing daycare over a family member (especially a first or second relationship) is hard in court.

The reason why is the "best interests" test:

(2) In determining the best interests of a child for the purposes of an application under this Part in respect of custody of or access to a child, a court shall consider all the needs and circumstances of the child including,

(a) the love, affection and emotional ties between the child and,

(i) each person entitled to or claiming custody of or access to the child,
(ii) other members of the child's family who reside with the child, and
(iii) persons involved in the care and upbringing of the child;

(b) the views and preferences of the child, where such views and preferences can reasonably be ascertained;

(c) the length of time the child has lived in a stable home environment;

(d) the ability and willingness of each person applying for custody of the child to provide the child with guidance and education, the necessaries of life and any special needs of the child;

(e) any plans proposed for the care and upbringing of the child;

(f) the permanence and stability of the family unit with which it is proposed that the child will live; and

(g) the relationship by blood or through an adoption order between the child and each person who is a party to the application.

----

I haven't seen many decisions where a judge has ordered daycare over a relative for care. If there are some please point me at them so I can add them to the pile for my research.

Good luck!

[dadtotheend]

Oh no what ever shall I do without your acceptance...

Dismiss that with which you don't agree. Continue to bring nth degree arguments why are right. At the end of this you know your conclusion will be that the kids are better off with you and that he pay full CS. No matter what anyone else says.

[Tayken]

Dismiss that with which you don't agree. Continue to bring nth degree arguments why are right. At the end of this you know your conclusion will be that the kids are better off with you and that he pay full CS. No matter what anyone else says.

Interesting observation. Not supporting it in this matter as there isn't enough evidence to support this but DttE has been around much longer to make such a comment.

But, it is a very good general observation on how high-conflict (10%) of the cases end at trial. It is good advice to keep in the back of the head when diving into a motion and litigation.

[dinkyface]

I haven't seen many decisions where a judge has ordered daycare over a relative for care. If there are some please point me at them so I can add them to the pile for my research.

I had a bitter laugh over that one. As NCP father (unemployed, but paying full support based on GENEROUS imputed income), I would have gladly had our child stay with me during the day instead of being in daycare (subsidized spot in same building as mom's then workplace) for 4 days a week. It never came to trial, but my lawyer advised I had little chance of making this happen (this issue first arose when child was less than 1 yr old!). Sets status quo of 50-50 time etc etc etc.

[Tayken]

I had a bitter laugh over that one. As NCP father, I would have gladly had our child stay with me during the day instead of being in (subsidized, workplace) daycare for 4 days a week. It never came to trial, but my lawyer advised I had little chance of making this happen (this issue first arose when child was less than 1 yr old!). Sets status quo of 50-50 time etc etc etc.

Bad advice from your solicitor in my opinion. Did the solicitor give you any reason based in case law as to why you should settle for daycare versus you being the provider? What did your solicitor base their opinion of "little chance of making this happen" on?

[dorano]

Dismiss that with which you don't agree. Continue to bring nth degree arguments why are right. At the end of this you know your conclusion will be that the kids are better off with you and that he pay full CS. No matter what anyone else says.

I have truly appreciated everyone's honest and constructive opinions and advise. Its a reality check at times, and not always what we want to hear, but it needs to be said and heard. I don't agree that they are better off with me because I am their mom, but because the situation currently calls for them to live with me as their primary caregiver - and note that their father currently agrees with that to the point that he would ok it in his revised seperation agreement submission to me!

But I don't agree that this is a generalisation that applies to everyone. I agree that they are OUR children, and that we both have equal rights to them, and I'm trying to make it as fair as possible while keeping in mind the best interest of the children (IE: not making them wake up at 4am).
I don't even care about receiving CS - I'm willing to waive it as long as we have to pay the large amount of child care expenses and even after, agree to a reduced amount if they are still living primarily with me. I don't agree that diminishing their fathers financial situation is to their benefit at all - I want him to be able to afford a safe and nice place for them to be with him, a safe car to drive etc. And I don't appreciate the assumption that there is something fishy going on or that I'm some control freak looking to just get a payday from my ex while holding on to the kids.

[wretchedotis]

Bad advice from your solicitor in my opinion. Did the solicitor give you any reason based in case law as to why you should settle for daycare versus you being the provider? What did your solicitor base their opinion of "little chance of making this happen" on?

You believe that Parental care is more important than the social conditioning availed by child care?

There are many that would present very legitimate arguements to that notion. I am not a student of law, but can assure you from a social development perspective, child care is a sought after arrangement for furthering a childs development. It promotes all the things that people need in life to get along as social animals.

[LostFather]

You believe that Parental care is more important than the social conditioning availed by child care?

There are many that would present very legitimate arguements to that notion. I am not a student of law, but can assure you from a social development perspective, child care is a sought after arrangement for furthering a childs development. It promotes all the things that people need in life to get along as social animals.

Agreed. Some parents snub their noses to the notion that a daycare would be a better option or adhoc to their own parental roles. I was one of those parents. But when I've seen first hand the benefits of which (a professional Government monitored) daycare could offer my child. I was humbled and quickly learned that although I know I am a good father I could not offer all that the daycare can provide my son. Social interaction and professionals that are trained and removed from my own biased love for my Child, whereas they take a more professional approach. They've molded him to the child he is today and i am very fortunate that I was able to put aside my own arrogance and ignorance, that parent knows best. Though that maybe true in some cases, I firmly believe that the social and educational values of a credible daycare is paramount to a child's early development. Even if for a few hours a day or a couple days a week. Again as always just my opinion.