Pushed up against a wall...

[dorano]

I have been separated for over 7 months, have two kids: 1 year old and 3.5 yrs. Dad sees the kids 2 days during the week and every Saturday and they have primary residence with me as their primary caregiver although no custody has officially been agreed on (despite at least 25k in legal fees between the two of us already). He's pushing for 50% but I don't feel we are there yet - but have no problem working towards it as a goal when the kids get a little older.

Dad is living in the matrimonial home on his own even though he can't afford it. House is sold but closing only in July. The initial plan was for me to buy out the home and stay there with the kids, but he suddenly decided to move back in and I left immediately with the two young kids and found a place of my own - I was on mat leave at the time at home full time with both kids and CAS had already been involved and recommended that that living together with the kids was not a good idea and not in their best interest due to volatile nature of the relationship - pre and post seperation.

I've since rented a home for myself and the kids, gone back to work early due to difficult finances, settled the kids nicely into a daycare routine and they've adjusted nicely to their schedule with dad as well.

Problem is I'm supporting the kids on my own and can't afford it! I have a good job, but not good enough to pay ALL kid related expenses including two full time child care spaces. I've already wasted over 10k on legal fees I don't have any more credit and can't obtain anymore because of my financial situation. I can't afford to take him to court to force him to help me with expenses, but I also can't afford to keep going like this for much longer. I've cashed out all my RRSP's, gone through my tax refund and have no more credit card or line of credit room available. I have one subsidized child care spot (lucked out) but am waiting for a second and have no idea how long it will take.

There will be funds available when the house closes in July, but we haven't agreed on how to divide that and have a feeling we won't be able to agree when the time comes, therefore the money will stay in trust until we agree.

What am I supposed to do? I'm stuck in a vicious circle of not being able to afford taking care of the kids (NOTE: he would not be able to do any better - lower paying job and very expensive smoking and drinking habits) because he is being stubborn but I can't afford to take him to court to force him to have to help me.

I understand finances are tight on both sides, but even a few hundred a month would help me tremendously and I'm not asking/expecting the full amount, just something, anything would help! His lawyer is dodged every request for child support, saying it will get settled in July but I have to survive in the meantime and have run out of options. And July will come and possibly not bring any resolution in the end...


What am I supposed to do?

My lawyer is very good, but I can't even afford to talk to her anymore. And she's said her firm is hesitant about signing agreements to carry balances.

[Mess]

The father is with the kids 3 days a week, perhaps it's not full overnights right now, but it could be. That is 3/4 schedule which amounts to a shared parenting arrangement, within 60-40%. Since you are already there, I would suggest you formally agree to 50-50% with him in order to settle this.

I think it's quite likely he is holding out for that and therefore being obstinate about settling. If you have a custody settlement then the rest should fall into place.

If you have filed with the courts but not reached trial, and you have had your first meeting with a judge (case conference) you may then file motions. Motions are simple hearings before a judge that should not cost much (or anything if you do it yourself) where each side files an affidavit and the judge makes an order. It would be a no brainer to order the set-off amount of child support to be paid. This is taking your income and his income and subtracting what you would pay from what he would pay and then he pays the difference (assuming he is the higher earner.)

Section 7 expenses, which certainly include daycare costs, would also be dealt with in the order. These would be split proportionately to your income. This would pay over half (assuming he is earning more than you) of daycare expenses.

If you haven't filed a court application for CS and section 7 expenses then your lawyer is NOT "very good", only very good at milking the file. The children have an absolute right to child support, the father is not paying and you are the verge of bankruptcy. That is not being "good", that is dragging it out.

If it were me I would say to dad that if you made 50/50 legally binding now, would he settle and pay the set-off support and share daycare expenses. Try to get it settled ASAP. Try to avoid dealing through your lawyer at this time, it only adds to your costs.

[dorano]

He only spends a few hours with them twice a week after school/daycare and every Saturday. He occasionally has an overnight on Saturday nights for the oldest, but has "called in sick" or passed it off to his mom. He can't even have them 50% of the time right now even if he wanted to - he works at 4:30am, and wouldn't be able to bring them to daycare and school and do the morning routine, plus works three evenings a week. The current schedule is basically "visitation" and is to accommodate his schedule and ensures maximum time with their dad based on his schedule.

Good point about the lawyer... we've been trying to negociate for months to no avail. I recently told her to stop negociations and file a court application, but I assumed I would be able to borrow money to pay for costs since I went back to work, but turns out I cannot borrow anymore money. Can't even borrow money from family, for a variety of reasons. I can't even afford to pay her for an hour of her time right now, because I've got a big debt load to pay as well as all the regular living expenses and daycare expenses. I'm not kidding when I say I'm out of options...

[fieldgrey]

You have a tough situation, but only made more difficult if you accept that you must use a lawyer. You have a second option: represent yourself. To be clear, self representation isn't 'free': it costs time, emotional and physical energy. But it's not a cheque you need to cut to a lawyer.

Your options are limited: if paid lawyer negotiations don't produce results then you are left with:
a. self represented court action
b. mediation
c. move on

Assuming moving on isn't in the cards, you can try publicly funded mediation at your local FLIC. Failing that, file your own paperwork to get this solved by the courts. Use the support calculation tables to back your case, and create an application that makes your first case conference a clear indication that you require support for the children. Hopefully a judge will give opinion accordingly so that trial is unnecessary.

So:
1. file your court action using applicable documents
2. per Mess' note above, file long motion (14 not 14B) with affidavit (14A) to address interim support needs before the matter is fully settled

Visit your local Family Law Information Centre (FLIC) Locations - Ministry of the Attorney General : explain what you want to have happen, they will give you the forms for it. Come back to this forum with your questions about filling the forms and then serve and file.

FG

[Mess]

Good advice from fieldgrey.

Regardless of whether you are at 50/50 now, and I recognized he may not be doing overnights, he is asking for this. Your choice is to fight or to agree or to make a separate proposal. Simply saying no is not negotiating. I'm not saying this to be hard on you, but to point out that you are in a conflict, your goal is to resolve the conflict, you are not achieving that goal by simply denying what your ex is asking. You need to put together at least a "vision" of what end result you want, decide whether is is achievable and start working toward it. If you want to deny your ex the 50/50 he is asking for, then put together a package, for yourself for now, of facts and arguments that will achieve that denial.

Can you do it? Decide this for yourself. Why do you want to do it? What will it achieve? Would working together so that the children can thrive in a co-parenting situation work? Your ex has odd hours right now, can you work with him to make it happen?

I don't want to say this is the absolute answer for you, but you have to decide WHY it doesn't work and be able to show it if you want to fight it. Once you decide, either way, what you are fighting for, then you can start to take steps toward that. You can probably get a quicker settlement with your ex with no fighting or animosity if you express you will go to 50/50 and work to make it happen for him and your kids. But I don't know your ex, maybe this will not be enough, maybe nothing will ever be enough. You have to decide, but you need reasons, you need to be able to show the reasons if you want to move forward. If you can't then the status quo of constant sniping, disagreement and no settlement is what you will be left with.

Edit to add:
Asking the lawyer to put together an application is probably $1,000-2,000 just for the paperwork. It is complicated but not impossible for a layman and if you are in tight finances you will do well to at least get the forms and get started. What I noted above about having clear reasons is absolutely necessary for court applications, you must be able to construct a solid presentation. We can help you as much as you need. Doing it through the lawyer makes it far more expensive.

Once you get to the case conference it may or may not (depending on you, your level of understanding, how much research you do etc) make sense to get representation again and have a lawyer deal with the judge, or at least have one go over your arguments and make sure you have enough supporting facts and fill everything out properly. I would say that handing every task over to the lawyer's office is the most expensive way to do it.

[staysingle]

Dorano, I agree withy both Mess and Fieldgrey. You are clearly in a tough spot right now. The two forces working against you at this time is 1) Family law is expensive (not self rep.) and family court moves ata snails pace.

Although I am a big supporter of equal shared parenty, I also realize its not for every family. You need to decide yeaterday if shared parenting can seriously work in your scenario. Once you decide this you need to take the legal matters in your own hands. There is plenty of help here to get you through this. Its frustrating at first but you soon realise withy some help you can do this effectivly.

Your financial situation is demanding you decide and get moving on matters now.

Good luck and check in often here.

[dadtotheend]

Why don't you craft a plan that puts the kids 50/50 with each of you and settle on CS i.e. co-parent with him.

As it stands, you sound like you are deciding that he can't do what he says he wants to do and then you turning around and crying poor because you have to care for the kids all the time.

Hello? Set it up for 50/50, work out on offset amount of CS, and move it forward.

Fishy, very fishy.

[dorano]

Why don't you craft a plan that puts the kids 50/50 with each of you and settle on CS i.e. co-parent with him.

As it stands, you sound like you are deciding that he can't do what he says he wants to do and then you turning around and crying poor because you have to care for the kids all the time.

Hello? Set it up for 50/50, work out on offset amount of CS, and move it forward.

Fishy, very fishy.

I've been reading this forum for a long time, and I knew that this was coming... any woman that posts on here inevitably gets slammed or accused of doing something wrong at some point. I even had to carefully pick my words because god forbid if I used the abuse word, or even said anything about all the crap he's been putting me through besides stranggling me financially just because he can and because he's a narcissistic asshole. But no, automatically it gets assumed by some that I'm lying, exaggerating and out to get him because he's a man right? And men always lose in divorce? Well, although this is right in many cases, and I agree the is a huge bias in place and a lot of unfair things occuring, did it ever occur to you that perhaps the opposite happens from time to time? I came into this marriage with assets, money, education - I fell in love with a high school drop out with no good prospects and loads of debt. I supported him all these years while he enjoyed the good life, paid off all his debt and now he's leaving the marriage with a lot more money and assets than he deserves, all because I messed up and bought "us" a house with my dead mothers money while we were common law. I'm not even fighting the money part - or property. I'm not even fighting custody! We are and will coparent these kids and I am, on the recommendation of professionals and my own exhaustive research (pros and cons both sides!) the 50/50 arrangement will come in stages.

Nothing is fishy - he wants 50/50 in theory, and because he loves his kids, but in practice it can't work yet and is not recommended by any of the professionals we have met with. It also won't work just yet (we are working TOWARDS IT, I am working with him TOWARDS it) but that doesn't mean never. I'm not asking for sole custody, it will be joint custody and eventually when he is better set up for it with his job and schedule and as the kids get a little older. He's already made leaps and bounds compared to what he was like when we were married - my 1 year old has only recently bonded with him because of the separation as they are finally spending some quality time together.

You are in love now dadtotheend - and I couldn't be happier for you because I'm certain you deserve it, everyone does, even my ex. Maybe ease up on the cynical a little bit and give me a chance to tell my story and get some advise as opposed to get attacked? I am not deciding what he can and cannot do - we have decided on the current schedule together and continue to make decisions together. It sucks, and cooperation is difficult, but its happening. What he HAS decided on his own however is that he doesn't want to give me a penny to help with the expenses for the kids - because he enjoys his smoking and drinking and after those and the mortgage are paid for there is no money left for daycare and child support. And he's still assuming, as he did our entire relationship, that I will bail him out and take care of business. My bad for enabling him this long, but now I can't even go grocery shopping without picking and choosing priorities for the kids on a strict budget, say no to extras they are used to and its still not enough to make ends meet.

[LostFather]

I've been reading this forum for a long time, and I knew that this was coming... any woman that posts on here inevitably gets slammed or accused of doing something wrong at some point. I even had to carefully pick my words because god forbid if I used the abuse word, or even said anything about all the crap he's been putting me through besides stranggling me financially just because he can and because he's a narcissistic asshole. But no, automatically it gets assumed by some that I'm lying, exaggerating and out to get him because he's a man right? And men always lose in divorce? Well, although this is right in many cases, and I agree the is a huge bias in place and a lot of unfair things occuring, did it ever occur to you that perhaps the opposite happens from time to time? I came into this marriage with assets, money, education - I fell in love with a high school drop out with no good prospects and loads of debt. I supported him all these years while he enjoyed the good life, paid off all his debt and now he's leaving the marriage with a lot more money and assets than he deserves, all because I messed up and bought "us" a house with my dead mothers money while we were common law. I'm not even fighting the money part - or property. I'm not even fighting custody! We are and will coparent these kids and I am, on the recommendation of professionals and my own exhaustive research (pros and cons both sides!) the 50/50 arrangement will come in stages.

Nothing is fishy - he wants 50/50 in theory, and because he loves his kids, but in practice it can't work yet and is not recommended by any of the professionals we have met with. It also won't work just yet (we are working TOWARDS IT, I am working with him TOWARDS it) but that doesn't mean never. I'm not asking for sole custody, it will be joint custody and eventually when he is better set up for it with his job and schedule and as the kids get a little older. He's already made leaps and bounds compared to what he was like when we were married - my 1 year old has only recently bonded with him because of the separation as they are finally spending some quality time together.

You are in love now dadtotheend - and I couldn't be happier for you because I'm certain you deserve it, everyone does, even my ex. Maybe ease up on the cynical a little bit and give me a chance to tell my story and get some advise as opposed to get attacked? I am not deciding what he can and cannot do - we have decided on the current schedule together and continue to make decisions together. It sucks, and cooperation is difficult, but its happening. What he HAS decided on his own however is that he doesn't want to give me a penny to help with the expenses for the kids - because he enjoys his smoking and drinking and after those and the mortgage are paid for there is no money left for daycare and child support. And he's still assuming, as he did our entire relationship, that I will bail him out and take care of business. My bad for enabling him this long, but now I can't even go grocery shopping without picking and choosing priorities for the kids on a strict budget, say no to extras they are used to and its still not enough to make ends meet.

I think maybe you need to find a way together to make equal access to work. It might not be easy but because he works at 4:30 am is not a reason for it not to work. Parents deal with all types of work schedules and you're no different. Find a way...maybe he can drop the children off in the morning before work. Its not ideal by any means but then again neither is your situation. What if you were the one that worked at 4:30 am. Would you think that its a acceptable not to have your children half the time or be reduced to eow? My guess is you would fight that idea.

Is his job paying the bills even to some extent. Would he quit so that he can get better hours maybe lower income. People do do that. It could be acceptable in this case. Men have a good reason to be skeptical these days in my opinion. One is status quo. He lets say for the sake of argument excepts your proposal for a lesser amount of access. What stops you from after a couple of years saying that the children are doing well with the current arrangement an its not in the best interests of the children to change that schedule? Status quo would most likely prevail and he would have a long hard, expensive financially and emotionally uphill battle to change that. If you look at the current case law you will quickly realize that any skepticism that men may have is very real and warranted.

Find a way now for it to work, do yourself and your children a favor as it will help them and you in the long term.

[dadtotheend]

If he refuses to pay CS, then take him to court.

[dorano]

I think maybe you need to find a way together to make equal access to work. It might not be easy but because he works at 4:30 am is not a reason for it not to work. Parents deal with all types of work schedules and you're no different. Find a way...maybe he can drop the children off in the morning before work. Its not ideal by any means but then again neither is your situation. What if you were the one that worked at 4:30 am. Would you think that its a acceptable not to have your children half the time or be reduced to eow? My guess is you would fight that idea.

I am trying to find an arrangement that works for both parents but above all that is best for the kids. What's best for the kids is that they have max involvement from both parents, but it is not in their best interest to drag them out of bed at 4am to drive them to my house only to have to have them leave an hour later to go to school or daycare. What I was told, by professionals (and my gutt!) is to focus on what's best for the children while having as much time with both parents as possible - and I believe this is what we are doing right now. The kids have rights - and often times in these fights their rights are infringed by the battle between the parents for what they believe to be fair for themselves. Fact of the matter is, he works at 4:30am, and works three evenings a week. He sees them the two afternoon/evenings he doesn't work, and we each get a weekend day for quality weekend time.

This may not work out to 50/50, or 40/60 (but pretty close as Mess stated) but isn't more important that the kids are thriving in this arrangement, getting lots of time with both parents while benefiting from having a secure home base without being tossed around like a baseball?

The issue at hand is that I have to take him to court to force him to pay child support, or even just at least child care expenses, but I can't afford a lawyer anymore. I'm not asking for the moon - I'm asking for help paying expenses for our children. I'm trying to avoid having to make them move again, have to change their daycare to an area that is more affordable in rent, and trying to still provide for their basic needs. He has a responsibility and he is dodging that responsibility.

I really appreciate the constructive advise I have received here - and will be going to the courthouse next week to start the process of filing for court application myself. Its clear I have to do this - the problem however still remains that this will take time, and while all this is happening I am still going for broke with no credit left. So the problem is how do I survive in the meantime?! I'll have to look into community resources I suppose.

[LostFather]

I am trying to find an arrangement that works for both parents but above all that is best for the kids. What's best for the kids is that they have max involvement from both parents, but it is not in their best interest to drag them out of bed at 4am to drive them to my house only to have to have them leave an hour later to go to school or daycare. What I was told, by professionals (and my gutt!) is to focus on what's best for the children while having as much time with both parents as possible - and I believe this is what we are doing right now. The kids have rights - and often times in these fights their rights are infringed by the battle between the parents for what they believe to be fair for themselves. Fact of the matter is, he works at 4:30am, and works three evenings a week. He sees them the two afternoon/evenings he doesn't work, and we each get a weekend day for quality weekend time.

This may not work out to 50/50, or 40/60 (but pretty close as Mess stated) but isn't more important that the kids are thriving in this arrangement, getting lots of time with both parents while benefiting from having a secure home base without being tossed around like a baseball?

The issue at hand is that I have to take him to court to force him to pay child support, or even just at least child care expenses, but I can't afford a lawyer anymore. I'm not asking for the moon - I'm asking for help paying expenses for our children. I'm trying to avoid having to make them move again, have to change their daycare to an area that is more affordable in rent, and trying to still provide for their basic needs. He has a responsibility and he is dodging that responsibility.

I really appreciate the constructive advise I have received here - and will be going to the courthouse next week to start the process of filing for court application myself. Its clear I have to do this - the problem however still remains that this will take time, and while all this is happening I am still going for broke with no credit left. So the problem is how do I survive in the meantime?! I'll have to look into community resources I suppose.

Okay so it won't work for an hour??? Is that what you're trying to say? okay...if you say so. In my opinion 1 hr will not make that huge of an impact on the children's lives. Maybe you could get up an hour earlier to make that accommodation work. As I said there are many that do. Many parents work varying schedules and thier children are just fine. I think its a being made harder than it has to be. Just my opinion.

[dorano]

Okay so it won't work for an hour??? Is that what you're trying to say? okay...if you say so. In my opinion 1 hr will not make that huge of an impact on the children's lives. Maybe you could get up an hour earlier to make that accommodation work. As I said there are many that do. Many parents work varying schedules and thier children are just fine. I think its a being made harder than it has to be. Just my opinion.

In the current arrangement, we get up at about 6:00am. Its early, and difficult on the kids at times, but manageable. Would you really force your children to get up at 4am just to satisfy your need to get to a special number? This is what I believe is not in the best interest of the children. I'm open to discuss other alternatives with him while being reasonable for the childre. And if it was the other way around, I would find a different job if I could, or go with the arrangement which is in their best interest for their sake, and not to just arrive to a magic number determined by the courts to appease a parents need for what "fair" to them. Is this fair to the kids? When did our rights become more important than theirs?

[fieldgrey]

I really appreciate the constructive advise I have received here - and will be going to the courthouse next week to start the process of filing for court application myself. Its clear I have to do this - the problem however still remains that this will take time, and while all this is happening I am still going for broke with no credit left. So the problem is how do I survive in the meantime?! I'll have to look into community resources I suppose.

Dorano, you have options for quick addressing of the case. Please review my post above: you can file the papers for permanent resolution to your case and immediately thereafter file a motion for an interim arrangement .

1. File your application with pleadings in the coming week
2. Wait the statutory period for response
3. file form 14 motion to reflect the orders for interim support you want made, you must include form 14A affidavit which outlines why you need these orders in the interim

You can ask for a 14 motion to be heard within 2 weeks of filing it.

Visit FLIC and identify your options. Remember: the court will not help you except with what you ask for and only with evidence to support your position. You must be your own best advocate within the court system.

FG

[Tayken]

I am trying to find an arrangement that works for both parents but above all that is best for the kids. What's best for the kids is that they have max involvement from both parents, but it is not in their best interest to drag them out of bed at 4am to drive them to my house only to have to have them leave an hour later to go to school or daycare. What I was told, by professionals (and my gutt!) is to focus on what's best for the children while having as much time with both parents as possible - and I believe this is what we are doing right now. The kids have rights - and often times in these fights their rights are infringed by the battle between the parents for what they believe to be fair for themselves. Fact of the matter is, he works at 4:30am, and works three evenings a week. He sees them the two afternoon/evenings he doesn't work, and we each get a weekend day for quality weekend time.

This may not work out to 50/50, or 40/60 (but pretty close as Mess stated) but isn't more important that the kids are thriving in this arrangement, getting lots of time with both parents while benefiting from having a secure home base without being tossed around like a baseball?

The issue at hand is that I have to take him to court to force him to pay child support, or even just at least child care expenses, but I can't afford a lawyer anymore. I'm not asking for the moon - I'm asking for help paying expenses for our children. I'm trying to avoid having to make them move again, have to change their daycare to an area that is more affordable in rent, and trying to still provide for their basic needs. He has a responsibility and he is dodging that responsibility.

I really appreciate the constructive advise I have received here - and will be going to the courthouse next week to start the process of filing for court application myself. Its clear I have to do this - the problem however still remains that this will take time, and while all this is happening I am still going for broke with no credit left. So the problem is how do I survive in the meantime?! I'll have to look into community resources I suppose.

This is just my opinion reading your thread.

Court is probably not the best option for you in this. You have a parent who is requesting 50/50 full joint (shared custody) and your only argument is his work schedule. There are thousands of counter arguments that he could craft that would put a wrench in your opinion.

At a 60/40 split you are already at the "edge" for the CS offset and most judges use the offset on a 60/40 these days as the tactic in court has been for parents to push for this for full table amount. It is amazing to see how many parents fold under pressure from a judge when the judge uses the offset. What I have observed in motions is that 90% of parents when told the offset is being used the arrangement goes to 50/50 anyways.

You have a parent who wants 50-50 and that is going to be hard to argue around. What is 10% really in the grand scheme of things?

If he has a family member to help with the children he can offset his schedule with work so he can get a 50-50. Have you recommended this option (if he has family close by that can help)?

Also, co-parenting is a concept from the feminist camp really. It evolved when mothers were getting shafted with full custody and dads would run away. The concept was that both parents were responsible for their children, not just financially. So, the judicial opinion on 50-50 is somewhat skewed and some judges will remind you of this some times.

Under the law, with no agreement the other parent has 50-50. So to argue not giving them 50-50 is an uphill battle. Judges don't often hold the other parent's job against them. Also, what happens when faced with this argument you are presenting and the other parent switches jobs to something better? Or even works from home?? Would you give up the children's care to him if say he worked from home and could spent more time than you with the children?

Careful with the "job" argument. Jobs are easy to change and often do. So, if you present the "job" argument in your affidavit he may very well switch "jobs" and find something even better.

"Judges don't take children away from willing parents." - Forgot the judge's name. This is what was said in court to a mother using the same argument.

Good luck!