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**jlalex** · 03-02-2006, 08:47 AM

I don't know a whole lot about spousal support, but I do believe that as long as he can show 'need' and you have 'means' then there is a good chance you will have to pay, especially given the length of your marriage.

Perhaps someone else more knowledgable can answer..there are also numerous threads about spousal support on here if you haven't read them already.

Good luck!

**Jenny** · 03-02-2006, 01:12 PM

check out the faq on spousal support here- lots of good advice there. Also the spousal support federal guidelines are great too.
http://www.justice.gc.ca/en/dept/pub...project/5.html

It looks like you would be paying him support. Like jlalex pointed out it is all about means and needs. It doesn't matter what he does with the money. With a long term marriage it is likely to be indefinate.

Perhaps if you live with your child who is still going to post secondary school -you can look into support for that?

**customgal** · 03-02-2006, 02:42 PM

Paying Spousal Support

Hi and thank you, Jenny and JLAlex,

I understand what you are saying, but I don't believe he can show he is "needy", especially when he stands to gain in the area of $40,000.00 from his half equity of the home. I may make double what he earns but I pay triple the expenses he pays. As well, how can he prove he is "needy" if he has money left over to waste on gambling and alcohol and drug use, and fails to provide the necessities of life for his children.

Once I buy him out, or we sell the home and I purchase one for myself and daughter to live in, I will not have the "means" to support him and his addictions. This just keeps getting worse by the minute.

I cannot believe there is law that would provide for someone like this. If anything, he should be in jail for failure to provide for his children, not being handed out a monetary award for being a deadbeat freeloader, who is perfectly capable of supporting himself and only seeking spousal support to be vindictive.

Customgal

**Jenny** · 03-02-2006, 05:20 PM

Do you still have your student loan? if so he would be responsible for 1/2 of that at valuation date.

How old are your children? Is the issue of child support still applicable?

The matrimonial home is an interesting thing. You each have a right to it. 1/2 of it is yours and half his. His 40 000 would be his buyout - assuming you are keeping the house? you would have 40000 in equity still. Or if you sell - you and him will have the same amount.

Also keep in mind that spousal support is tax deductable- your 1000 a month would be more like 700 a month ( I don't know what your tax bracket is off hand)

**customgal** · 03-02-2006, 09:44 PM

Hi Jenny,

No, unfortunately, I paid my student loan off around 12 years ago. I have totally worked hard and finally made it to do what I have wanted to do for a very long time. As for the house, he will not move out, will not let me move out (because he has told me if I do, he expects me to continue paying the mortgage...and if he doesn't, my credit rating is shot). He also is unwilling to list it, so, as I explained to Honey I'm Home, he has been holding me and my daughter hostage.

I just can't give in to him. If I end up paying him the thousand a month he is demanding, it will mean his take-home pay will be far greater then mine and I will have our daughter (17 this month).

I would love nothing more then to just move her and I out and leave him hanging. One of the letters I received from his lawyer back in October stated that he will waive spousal support if I sign over the house to him, and basically move out with my daughter to the street (with no downpayment for another home). What I can not figure out...is how he can state that he is so "needy" and desperate for my money for support in one letter, but the next tell me he can take over the whole house and all it's costs himself??? Does that not make him look like a total fool?

I know people have told me it doesn't matter what he is spending his money on, but my lawyer told me I am not responsible for his addictions...how can it be fair that I would have to work to pay him to sit in a bingo hall and waste money? I intend to argue that, along with the facts that he never did anything compensatable; i.e. he never stayed home to raise our children (we also have a son, 23), he earned more then I did throughout the majority of the relationship and he will not be economically deprived...I am sure on the $34,000 he earns he can support himself. It is not like he is earning minimum wage part time someplace. I have also told him I do not want anything from him, like child support, and that he can have everything in this house. I would really like to stay here with my daughter, because we both love it here and it is close for her to school, her friends and both her co-op job and regular part-time job, all which are walking distance. We end up moving and it will mean rides for her back and forth and I am a twelve-hour shift worker who can not always provide that. As well, her father, being the useless slug he is, will never provide her with rides, because he works straight nights.

Anyways, if anyone out there has any ideas, whatsoever, I'm all ears...thank you all for your advice.

Customgal

**honey I'm home** · 03-02-2006, 11:28 PM

Hey...

Had to read...

You know you can also hit him up for child support, and spousal support, and I raised my two on less then that. When I bought our house we ate pop corn or nachos as a "treat" for dinner, so what is he moaning about. Ask your lawyers what else you can get, play him at "his" game and go for the juggler. Tell him your want child and spousal support, the child support may even counter act the spousal support in which case neither of you may get nothing. Get out all your chips, aim for the top and meet in the middle.

BARTER - also so you know spousal support is only for a limited number of years so that the spouse can get any further educational training at no financial stress to the spouse. I believe that after so long that the spousal support ends. Check this with your lawyer.

Cheers .... keep at it.... it will all work out....

**Jenny** · 03-03-2006, 12:54 AM

Well you would be entitled for child support for at least a year. That helps with your bargining position. that would be about 300 bucks (tax free- spousal is deductable for the payor and child isn't) -for a year or more if she lives at home and goes to school while in university.

The guidelines for spousal support are based on both compensation as well as income sharing. So it doesn't matter that he didn't do anything that you think he should be compensated for.The income sharing thing comes in with you two. They also say with a long term marriage it would be indefinate. You could easily looking at paying the rest of your life.( the usual guidelines would be .5-1 yr per marriage- which in your case would be 11-23 yrs)

I'm not sure how you figure his take home would be higher than yours? How do you figure? He will have to pay taxes on what he gets from you. At 34 000 with 1000 added in to his salary he would be making 46 000 a year all taxable. You would be making 53 000 taxable. (65000-12000)

How about pensions. If he made more most years - his pension would probably be significantly higher. Is there some trade off there? you take less and he takes less support.

Personally I would give him the house in exchange for a waiver against support unless you have something else to barter with. That would be really only be the equivelant of a few years of support ( at 12 000 a year) Much better than giving him 23 yrs of that 1000 a month!

I know it probably feels crappy but the law is the law and really you can't get out of your obligiations.

**customgal** · 03-03-2006, 03:41 PM

Hi Jenny,

I have seen his pay stubs and his take-home pay is just shy of $2000.00 per month. My take-home pay is approximately $3200 per month. It varies from month to month if I work overtime, but that would be average. If I have to pay him $1000. then that means my take-home would drop to $2200, while his take home would be boosted to $3000.00.

Big deal that he would have to pay me all of $300 a month in child support for a year...I would still be earning less then him. And I am certain my daughter (who has suffered emotionally and not doing well in school because of this) will not graduate next year...she will have to pick up at least another semester before she will be able to go to college.

And you can pretty much bet there will be no overtime being worked in my future, which is a shame because at that pay I am certain I could use it.

And it should matter that he has all the money in the world to smoke, drink and gamble, but not to support himself on. Does anyone wonder why I wanted out of this sham of a marriage in the first place?

My obligations?? Wasn't it enough of an obligation that I raised our children nearly single-handedly? That I tried to better myself in order to support our children when it became obvious he wasn't going to get off his butt to provide for them? What about his obligations to his family? What about the 18 years he earned more than me?? Maybe I should ask for compensatory support for all those years?

His not earning a higher income has nothing to do with the marriage...he had every opportunity available to him as did I...it is his lack of ambition and addictions that have held him back. He is an adult who should be responsible for himself and the choices he has made. I could have very easily stayed at my former job where I earned all of $25000.00 too, and done nothing with my life. I wonder how sympathetic a judge/court would be with me in that case?

Yes, I thought of leaving back then, actually he asked me for a divorce, but at the time I was scared that I could not support myself and 2 kids on that pay. Yes, ME. The thought of getting anything from him never ever occurred to me, because I am RESPONSIBLE for myself and my children. As should all adults be, and unless the adult has done something worth being paid for, such as staying home to raise children, or the other spouse happens to Paris Hilton or Britney Spears, than I think that adult should have to fend for him or herself.

Just my two cents worth...I still plan on defending my position on not paying him spousal support no matter what.

Thanks for your information.

Customgal

**Jenny** · 03-03-2006, 05:53 PM

You said.."""I have seen his pay stubs and his take-home pay is just shy of $2000.00 per month. My take-home pay is approximately $3200 per month. It varies from month to month if I work overtime, but that would be average. If I have to pay him $1000. then that means my take-home would drop to $2200, while his take home would be boosted to $3000.00"""

The 1000 you would give him would be Tax deductableso you wouldn't drop to 2200. I am assuming that you are in Ontario? 12000 a year would knock you down to a different tax bracket. You pay at least 33% on it. So it would be more like 700 you are paying out. Spousal support is Tax deductable to the payor- child support isn't .So if you got 300 a month from him and paid him 1000 ( which would only be 700) you would really be out only 400 a month. BUT that is only for the few years at the most and he has a longer claim then child support would be. Also he would have to PAY income tax on what you pay him. What would happen would be income equizilation. Where you guys are looking at close to the same income.

If you are talking about gross pay you would make 5400 a month and he would make 2800. You are taxed at different rates - one person could have extra tax taken off, pay different union fees etc... One person could have deductions for charity, for rrsp's etc. So it might not be comparing apples to oranges.
http://www.taxtips.ca/ontax.htm#ONTaxRates

Anyway you can try - it may be very expensive to get out of support especially if you are not willing to give up anything for it. Are you thinking this will go to court?

Good Luck - keep us up to date on how it is going....

**customgal** · 03-03-2006, 06:41 PM

Jenny,

One thing you said, "it may be very expensive to get out of support especially if you are not willing to give up anything for it." This intrigued me...are you suggesting that there is something I can possibly give him? I have offered him close to $10,000 over and above what my equalization payment would be, everything in the house as far as furniture, waiving of the nearly $8000 he now owes me in back child support and household carrying costs, plus my not seeking any future child support payments from him.

What more could I offer him? My lawyer seems to think he has a very weak case for spousal support, given all the situations involved. As far as being expensive, well if I am paying a lawyer, he is too. And if he is supposedly so destitute, how can he afford it? We are hoping that once it goes to case conference things will finally allow both of us to see the light. I may be way out of it here, but I hope he will see that his stubbornness is going to only make the lawyers rich and this bothers me considering he did not give our son one penny towards his college tuition.

It has always been his way, and it was all about him. He acts very childish when he is not getting his way. I do have a conscience and if I truly thought he had done something in this marriage -- supposedly a 50/50 partnership as my lawyer has told me -- worth being supported for, I would gladly give him the money. But how do you willingly give up money you worked so hard for to somebody like this?? I mean I can not feel sorry for someone who refuses to support his children, or help out around the house with costs, but uses his money for illegal and useless things. There is no reason on earth that at his income he cannot support himself (don't forget the $40,000 he will receive from proceeds of the house).

I read the spousal support guidelines and they are just that -- guidelines. There is a phrase that states something to the effect "a mere disparity of income alone between the parties does not guarantee entitlement." There is nothing in black and white as there is for child support. As well, I do not know which of the 4 stated criteria he would fall into, because he really does not fall into any of them as the way I read and interpret it. But even though my lawyer does agree with me, he has told me there is a risk a judge would order spousal support, but that each case is looked at on its own merits.

So yes, to answer your question, I intend on taking this as far as I have to, because that is how strongly I feel about it. My lawyer does not believe he has an entitlement to it and I am praying a judge will agree. If not, well, I have pretty much lost my standard of living and my very will to live. As I have been supporting myself and my daughter for well over a year now on my income, I know I can do it alone, but having to pay him would definitely destroy my ability to carry on -- and believe me we don't live high off the hog. I drive a 9 year old car, which I just paid off last year (I bought it at 3 years old when I had my old job and took a 5 year loan on it) and it is not running well, so once I replace it and get a new car loan, we will just be making it. So where this money is coming from to pay him, I have no clue, unless the law expects me to take my daughter to live in some hole, just to satisfy her father's greed and vindictiveness.

I have also been told by three lawyers that if I end up having to pay him, I should appeal it and that I would win in appelant court.

Oh, by the way, I am in Ontario.

Thanks Jenny.

Customgal

**Jenny** · 03-03-2006, 08:53 PM

I thought in your first post - some of the three lawyers you have seen have told you that you "have an "obligation" to pay him"

Good luck with taking it as far as it goes. Just be prepared to pay ... to take something to court can cost in the tens of thousands . That and you may end up paying him support for the next 23 yrs anyway

**today** · 03-03-2006, 11:32 PM

I'll add my 2 cents worth, 1st and most important I think you have every right to be upset about the possibility of paying virtually any amount of spousal support based on what you are going through. However I really do believe that he may have a very good chance of winning his case. I've seen the same comments about refusing to work, wasting time, money etc. but roles are generally reversed, men complaining about thier ex wanting spousal. Very often for long term marriages such as yours the only thing the judge will take into consideration is the discrepency in income between the two parties and order such as to make it equal, meaning higher income earner pays lower income earner, period. Keep in mind equalization of assetts is a completely seperate issue, so the equity in the house is not relevant as far as spousal is concerned. I recently read a commentary that this is the worst time to face a judge for spousal support, of course by worse I mean for higher income earners. It's simply out of control. So, perhaps a suggestion may be to think what you can trade off in order to have him take this demand off the table, sign over house, RRSP's. pension plans, really only you know what you have of value that may help get him to take this off the table. I do wish you the very best of luck.

**Jenny** · 03-04-2006, 12:01 AM

Today - that is exactly what I was getting at. She most likely will have to pay unless she trades something for it above the equilization payment. Personally I would give up whatever I could- the house, rrsp's claims to pensions whatever it took -23 yrs is a long time to be potientally paying support for. Thanks for putting it so succinctly

**today** · 03-04-2006, 12:20 AM

It is so difficult for most of us to fanthom the idea that we may be responsible to pay an ex spouse for what really amounts to an eternity when a realtionship is over. Really if you think about it, it has gone way too far. I believe the initial reasoning for this was to protect and allow a person, (in most cases the women) to leave a relationship but not be stuck in utter poverty. I think most would agree this was a necessity at one time and still is in certain circumstances. Otherwise a person could be stuck in an abusive situation with no way out. The pendulum has swung too far and will in all probabilty will come back towards the middle at some point but right now it is simply not right. Equalization of assetts is just that and in my opinion fair, we should have share our assetts upon seperation, no? But spousal is out of control, it is only recently I start to hear more and more women complaining about this as well, hopefully since womens rights are much more organized perhaps this will come to forefront as womens groups have a much better voice than those of men in parliment. Once again best of luck.

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