Child Support: Guidelines vs "I Want Money!"

[billiechic]

Well, then you bend, and the next day they want you to bend again, and again the next day, and then you're bent right over ready to take it up the .....

I think in this case you are exactly right. Reasonable parents will be able to balance things out with one giving in one time, the other the next. But this is not the case. Stepmom and her family are at the bending over point, and the child WILL suffer as well.

I'm glad you guys are standing up to her this time. You are setting a good example for your son.

[wretchedotis]

Oh I agree, and unfortunately I must endure that very violation too often, it seems. The point I'm trying to make is that their behaviour is outside your locus of control. I find when I dwell on it, I'm only making things worse for myself. Respond reasonably and take the next appropriate step to the situation. Then don't dwell on it.

[Mess]

Until then, don't make it worse by fighting it bitterly and letting it ruin your day. Bend....

Well, then you bend, and the next day they want you to bend again, and again the next day, and then you're bent right over ready to take it up the .....

[#1StepMom]

It's better to go along in order to get along often....Bend....

Seems great in theory - and sometimes in practice - but if you have to deal with a "recipient" like we deal with, you'll soon realize that if you give an inch, she'll try to take a mile, and if taking a mile doesn't work, she'll take you to court for 10 miles, and the court will side with her because in the past, you had given an inch.

At least this has been our experience.

What the family court has taught us is that if you're not legally obligated to do it, do not do it or else you will become yet another court-ordered obligation.

Sad, but true.

Believe me, we pick our battles, and oftentimes we do give in... but we are very weary of the situations to which we give in, and always examine every possible senario. (As in... "How can this come back to bite us in the you-know-what?")

But, you're right... in order to save your sanity, you must choose your battles wisely. :-)

[wretchedotis]

My personal feelings would be, I don't mind submitting such information to authorities, but I don't "submit" to my ex. I don't jump to attention when she enters the room and I don't report to her on my activities. She isn't my supervisor, manager, agent, CEO, parole officer or any similar role. That doesn't stop her from trying to act like it.

This is eeriely familier....

But you have to live your life, and you might want to consider strategies for dealing with her behaviour in ways that will not cause you so much day to day grief.

It's better to go along in order to get along often.

I empathize with so much in this thread.

There's alot of good common-sense advice already here. You just have to put up with it, and hope that time will make it better. Until then, don't make it worse by fighting it bitterly and letting it ruin your day. Bend....

[NoahsDaddy]

Hi, StepMom, this is not to put you down, and I take your side in all this, but the court couldn't possibly make any other decision. It would open the door to constant fighting about "We have a nicer house in a nicer neighbourhood" in every custody case.

The courts would not seize a child from a happily married couple living in a basement apartment with their grandparents and give the child to you for foster care. They have to apply the same standards and rules for everyone.

If you lost own job, and you were both unemployed next year, and had to move, would the child change custody again? and then again the next year? The rules are not perfect, but there has to be some limits in what they can decide is the child's best interest. The courts would turn into a bad version of the CAS if they were making decisions like that. And parents would be demanding decisions like that all the time.

I know you are speaking out of frustration and genuine care for the child, I don't mean this to be overly critical but sometimes we have to step back and realize that it's not just us these decisions are for.

Mess, you always seem to be very level-headed an offer some excellent advice on here...kudos to you.

It just amazes me how some people seem to have this sense of financial entitlement when they're receiving child support - trying to get every last cent that they can out of you. If I had a dollar for every time my ex has tried to get an extra 10 or 20 bucks out of me, I'd be...well...I'd still be paying a lot of money in CS every month. I've had to have arguments with her about whether or not shoes are included in my CS money and so on; how people can look in the mirror after picking a fight with you over 20 bucks is beyond me...especially when they're already getting over 700/month as it is. Some people need to accept responsibility for the fact that they're a parent too - just scraping by in life and being reliant on someone else's money to simply get by is not setting a good example for your children.

In my situation, I do look at it from #1StepMom's point of view sometimes too. These courts and lawyers constantly talk about what is in the "best interests" of the child, correct? Would it not be in the childs best interests to be afforded the opportunity to have everything possible and grow up in comfort? My son's primary residence is a messy 750 square foot apartment. He does not have a play room, a backyard or any friends/family nearby...my ex has changed his residence 4 times in the last year and a half. Up until June of this past year, he didn't even have his own room. On top of that, there's a revolving door of people and different guys etc. coming in and out of there.

While I was going through court, I had my living arrangements and their apparent "safety" questioned repeatedly. No joke - I even got court papers where she questioned whether or not he had a crib/bed. This is from someone who was living in her parents home and sharing a bedroom with my son. Meanwhile, my wife and I have a large house in which my son has his own room along with a playroom, backyard with a sandbox and swing set etc. etc. On top of that, he would have the opportunity to grow up with his sister and form a bond/relationship there. She's also run out of things to criticize me about and is now focusing on my wife. She's introduced me to more than one guy in the last little while, yet, wants to make issue of someone that is a part of his life every week?

I also make three times what she does in a year and my job provides all benefits for my son as she doesn't have any. She is fully capable of working at a better job that gives you things like this, but chooses not to. Not that I can really blame her though - the minute she makes more money, it's less that she can take from me for extraordinary expenses etc.

Even though she does it to me all the time, I don't question my ex' commitment to him or her ability to parent. I'm not in any way saying that primary residence should be based on who has the nicer house - money does not in any way equal love for a child. However, if both parties are fit parents and there is a glaring discrepancy between the lifestyles of both parents, what is truly in the "best interests" of the child? In my opinion, it's not spending the majority of his/her time with one parent that views the other one as some sort of babysitter that doubles as a cash machine.

Food for thought.

[#1StepMom]

Hi, StepMom, this is not to put you down, and I take your side in all this, but the court couldn't possibly make any other decision. It would open the door to constant fighting about "We have a nicer house in a nicer neighbourhood" in every custody case.

The courts would not seize a child from a happily married couple living in a basement apartment with their grandparents and give the child to you for foster care. They have to apply the same standards and rules for everyone.

If you lost own job, and you were both unemployed next year, and had to move, would the child change custody again? and then again the next year? The rules are not perfect, but there has to be some limits in what they can decide is the child's best interest. The courts would turn into a bad version of the CAS if they were making decisions like that. And parents would be demanding decisions like that all the time.

I know you are speaking out of frustration and genuine care for the child, I don't mean this to be overly critical but sometimes we have to step back and realize that it's not just us these decisions are for.

Oh Mess, please don't misunderstand me. My husband and I are not looking to change the primary residence of the child. (Despite many encouraging us to try, because - for the reasons listed previously - they feel the child would be much better off with us.)

We understand the reasons for determining a change of custody.

We also acknowledge that our son is cared for adequately given his mother's circumstances, and that he is in no danger living with her.

I'm just saying that by simply comparing the family/living circumstances of both biological parents, the child would have a very different life living with us than with his mother who, at the age of 30, is living rent-free with her grandparents, with no bills (other than her cell phone) to pay, while working full-time making over $40,000/year and receiving child support, subsidized child care, child tax benefits, and relying on her grandparents to take care of her child.

But, we all know that everyone's life is different, and so we do not hold her situation against her... and that is why we are not bothering with asking the court for a change in primary residence.

The child is loved and cared for well in both homes. He's happy and well adjusted. He is developing well and is in no physical/emotional/psychological danger. So, we are thankful for that! :-)

[Mess]

But, according to the Ontario family court, a change in primary custody for the reasons listed above is not in the child's best interest. Go figure!

Hi, StepMom, this is not to put you down, and I take your side in all this, but the court couldn't possibly make any other decision. It would open the door to constant fighting about "We have a nicer house in a nicer neighbourhood" in every custody case.

The courts would not seize a child from a happily married couple living in a basement apartment with their grandparents and give the child to you for foster care. They have to apply the same standards and rules for everyone.

If you lost own job, and you were both unemployed next year, and had to move, would the child change custody again? and then again the next year? The rules are not perfect, but there has to be some limits in what they can decide is the child's best interest. The courts would turn into a bad version of the CAS if they were making decisions like that. And parents would be demanding decisions like that all the time.

I know you are speaking out of frustration and genuine care for the child, I don't mean this to be overly critical but sometimes we have to step back and realize that it's not just us these decisions are for.

[#1StepMom]

I've heard that in some cases, when child turn 12. Child can decide which parent he/she wants to be preliminary with. You may consult a free consular in court house to check this out.

Thanks Maple, but we still have 5 years until he turns 12. But we will definitely cross that bridge when we get there!

[maple_2009]

I've heard that in some cases, when child turn 12. Child can decide which parent he/she wants to be preliminary with. You may consult a free consular in court house to check this out.

[#1StepMom]

so if she wants your income, almost like a hardship, then everyone in her house should also be considered. If the judge makes you do this, ask that it be for the 2 households which would include her grandparents

Most definitely, Frustrated!

If she wants to go after our household income, we'll go after hers! It's not just a one-way street! ;-)

[#1StepMom]

Thanks for your reply! I believe that your husband has never did anything wrong. And from your post, I can see you and your family are caring and loving parents. I am doing self representing too right now. I wonder if it is possible to have another judge for your case the next time.

It is a very tough situation that have the same judge and she keep making these kind of decisions.

Stay Strong! Bless you!

Thank you Maple. We are doing the best we can given the circumstances. The one rewarding thing is that when our son (and I consider him my son too, as I have been raising him from birth as well) is with us, he is a joy to have around. He tells us how much he enjoys being with us, and how he wishes he could stay with us longer or more often. (My husband and I always tell him that he needs to go back to his "other mom" - as he refers to his biological mother when he's with us - so that he can go to school to learn and be with his friends.)

Realistically speaking, he would have a much better life living with us full-time, but unless we have proof of grave danger to him while in his mother's care, there is no way we would ever gain primary physical custody, as that would mean "uprooting" the child from his home and school community - something judges refuse to do unless the child is in danger. The fact that he lives in a 9'x9' room which he shares with his mother (and occasionally his mother's sister too) in her grandparents' basement, and gets sent to school/daycare 7am-6pm daily, including during vacations, is no reason - according to the court - for there to be a change in primary residence. Even if such a change would mean the child having his very own room with his father and stepmother, living in their own home, and attending a very highly-reputed school where his stepmother works, without having to attend daycare or before/after-school programs, as both his paternal grandmother and step-grandmother are retired and live 20min away, and are more than willing to take care of their grandson if necessary.

But, according to the Ontario family court, a change in primary custody for the reasons listed above is not in the child's best interest. Go figure!

Anyhow, we're not going to be revisiting primary residency for several more years, until our son is old enough for his word to mean something in court, and should he wish to move in with us permanently when he's older.

For now, we're trying to keep afloat when fighting these other battles being started by his mom.

[frustrated11]

Basically, this is what has happened in terms of child support:

December 2009: My husband sends a second copy of the offer to settle. He attempts to come to an agreement with the recipient by meeting with her to discuss the options. She is in no way interested in his offers, but in building her case against him claiming voluntary un/under-employment, and trying to go after MY income by asking for child support to be based on our household income.

So here we are now... curious about what can happen with such a claim of voluntary un/under-employment.

Has anyone gone through this?

so if she wants your income, almost like a hardship, then everyone in her house should also be considered. If the judge makes you do this, ask that it be for the 2 households which would include her grandparents

[maple_2009]

Maple, my stepson's mom (we don't call her his ex because they were never together, married or dating) is no longer in school. She has had full-time employment for at least a year now.

The child is 7 years old, in school and attending daycare daily, before and after school and during school vacations (when in his mother's care).

My husband is self-representing as we cannot afford a lawyer. Right now, given his employment situation, I am able to barely sustain our household. We cannot afford any luxaries such as hiring an attorney, especially since we are still paying off our past attorneys (who have done nothing for us).

My husband has never done anything wrong. He has always exercised his access, paid child support and special-extraordinary expenses on time, and has never done anything against family law rules or guidelines.

All he wants is to abide by the guidelines.

It just so happens that he had the same judge for all court appearances (except the 1st one in 2007)... and this lady judge ruled a lot on feelings. Most of her explanations began with "I feel that..." Each time my husband has been in front of this one judge, he has been slaughtered.

We hope that one day, we can get the judge we had at the first court date, so that he can settle the issue once and for all and rectify the mess his colleague has made. *Fingers crossed*

I'm sorry to hear that you may have to be in our shoes too. It really is a tough situation.

Thanks for your reply! I believe that your husband has never did anything wrong. And from your post, I can see you and your family are caring and loving parents. I am doing self representing too right now. I wonder if it is possible to have another judge for your case the next time.

It is a very tough situation that have the same judge and she keep making these kind of decisions.

Stay Strong! Bless you!

[#1StepMom]

Is your husband's ex is still in school? how old is the child? Is your husband doing self-represent?

It sounds like judge has been disfavor your husband for all the orders have been made. What was the reason for that? Have your husband done anything wrong during his last marriage?

Is it always the same judge who made those orders?

I feel sorry to hear this. I might go through same or even worse situation soon too.

Maple, my stepson's mom (we don't call her his ex because they were never together, married or dating) is no longer in school. She has had full-time employment for at least a year now.

The child is 7 years old, in school and attending daycare daily, before and after school and during school vacations (when in his mother's care).

My husband is self-representing as we cannot afford a lawyer. Right now, given his employment situation, I am able to barely sustain our household. We cannot afford any luxaries such as hiring an attorney, especially since we are still paying off our past attorneys (who have done nothing for us).

My husband has never done anything wrong. He has always exercised his access, paid child support and special-extraordinary expenses on time, and has never done anything against family law rules or guidelines.

All he wants is to abide by the guidelines.

It just so happens that he had the same judge for all court appearances (except the 1st one in 2007)... and this lady judge ruled a lot on feelings. Most of her explanations began with "I feel that..." Each time my husband has been in front of this one judge, he has been slaughtered.

We hope that one day, we can get the judge we had at the first court date, so that he can settle the issue once and for all and rectify the mess his colleague has made. *Fingers crossed*

I'm sorry to hear that you may have to be in our shoes too. It really is a tough situation.