Children Alienation - Help

[Justforkids]

Hi Everyone,
My partner moved out with the kids without my consent. In the past month, I have been trying to work out an agreement for access and preparing to bring a motion for access but unsussessful till this point.
I do not see any intention and/or reason for her to negotiate (at this point) for my access to the children as she always wanted to have sole custody for the children.
She is now claiming that the kids do not want to visit me and I have no access of the younger boy since they moved out. I would say that this is clearly child alienation. What can I do other than going to court for an other for access? What if the children say that they don't want to come with me even after I get an order? Thanks!
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[kamkatie]

What if the children say that they don't want to come with me even after I get an order? Thanks!
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If the kids said they don't want to go to school would the ex allow them to stay home? Its just crap. As a parent she is responsible for seeing the larger picture which should include you as their father. How old are the kids in question?

[Justforkids]

Thanks Kam.
The boys are 8 and 12.
In the past few years, my flexible work schedule allow me to be home 2 to 3 days a week after school hours and she was home the other 2 days. I know the kids and I have a very good relationship but they are now telling me that they don't want to visit me. The kids are under presure from the mother but I don't know what to do. I worry about the kids because they live with her now. If the kids show too much affection to me, they may get punishment from her.

[kamkatie]

We deal with this with my fiance's eldest two. Its horrible. How is your communication with the ex? If you take it to court (and if its PA you likely will have to), the 12 year old's opinions mayl be taken into consideration. Start documenting everything. Keep track of when you see them, your requests, her denials. Attend their parent teacher conferences, ask for school report cards, find out their medical and dental information. Be as involved as you can. Talk to the school and let them know the situation. Do you have any type of custody agreement? If this separation is recent, the longer you leave things the worse off you will be as she will have established a status quo and the courts are very unlikely to change it. Educate yourself on your rights and your children's rights.

[Justforkids]

We deal with this with my fiance's eldest two. Its horrible. How is your communication with the ex? If you take it to court (and if its PA you likely will have to), the 12 year old's opinions mayl be taken into consideration. Start documenting everything. Keep track of when you see them, your requests, her denials. Attend their parent teacher conferences, ask for school report cards, find out their medical and dental information. Be as involved as you can. Talk to the school and let them know the situation. Do you have any type of custody agreement? If this separation is recent, the longer you leave things the worse off you will be as she will have established a status quo and the courts are very unlikely to change it. Educate yourself on your rights and your children's rights.

communication is another "problem" she created. she told me not to talk to her but her lawyer. she claims that no communication between us but i am always more than willing to talk to her with any issues.
her lawyer said that ex. believes my involvement in the upbring of the children is the children's best interest but the children do not want my access. how can i then look after them after school 2 to 3 days a week in the last few years if they do not want to be with me?
there is no custody agreement and this jsut happened recently. i kept asking for the same scheudle as before we move but she kept refusing. over the years, she is the one involved in the school meetings, doctor and dentist appointments most of the time because she works pt.
i jsut don't understand how come a parent wants sole custody, just for moeny?

[miserable]

it is unfortunate that some parents seem to believe its ok to alter the childs feelings about the non custodial parent. I see that you are talking about PA, there is another form of emotional abuse being used, its called HAP.- hostile-aggressive parenting, you can find some articles on the web, and there is a service out in Toronto that can help you with this. You can find the name and number in the articles about HAP. Remember you have rights, and the longer you stay away from the youngest one, his attitude about you will not change. Try going to school at lunch, it could help to reconnect with him. If you can, do it at least once a week. He will feel safe at school and you will not be interupted by the other parent. You have rights, exercise them.

[dinkyface]

Then keep talking to her lawyer. Frequently. Send him/her emails. Large emails, with attached articles. Often.

Yes, sole custody is about money - and control (i.e. freedom to ignore any wishes you may have regarding children's upbringing). But it sounds like she is after even more - to cut you out of their lives while appearing like she supports your involvement.

[Justforkids]

Thanks for all your replies. If a bring a motion to court, can I ask a judge to order the children go on conselling? I think conselling would help the children understand their rights and that they need to maintain contact with both parents.

[representingself]

Remember you have rights, and the longer you stay away from the youngest one, his attitude about you will not change. Try going to school at lunch, it could help to reconnect with him. If you can, do it at least once a week. He will feel safe at school and you will not be interupted by the other parent. You have rights, exercise them.

For all you know you ex is lying her face off and the kids really do want to see you... I think "miserable" has an excellent idea. If you can manage it, go and pick them up for lunch from school. Now they only get short breaks, so plan on staying nearby. Pack a picnic with nice, nutritional snacks (so that she-devil can't accuse you of feeding them crap)...

If you can do this... make it a regular occurrence.... You are fully within your rights to do so, and there isn't a damn thing she can do about it.

Also, talk to your children's school officials. Tell them EXACTLY what is going on... they can arrange for some counselling for your little ones if they are being manipulated and traumatized by your ex.

I'd also consider an emergency motion for access... you definitely need to get this situation documented and under control before it goes too far and the damage is irreversible!

You are their father and those boys need you!

She should be ashamed of herself for what she is doing to those children

Good luck 2 U

[Stargate]

It IS clearly child alienation and any Judge will hammer your ex for what she has done.

You will need to bring a Motion to the Court and have your ex served demanding full access to your kids. I do recommend you do this through a lawyer. It will be costly but you can get your legal costs reimbursed by your ex through the Courts via your Motion.

Again, get a lawyer!

[IronMama]

I dont understand why everyone is so quick to label and BLAME a custodial parent for the kids---the kids who are "persons" entitled to their feelings and opinions too---not wanting contact with the other parent.
It is so easy to say and point the fingers at the one parent saying they are somehow responsible for the childrens reaction, when if the "offending" parent just took a step back and take a hard look at themselves they would have the answers.

If my child said he doesnt want to go to school....I would ask for a solid REASON. If my child says he does not want to speak to his father, I MUST get a soild reason, and I in turn MUST do what is in the best interest of my child.
Also one MUST take into consideration the ages of the children when the absent parent left their lives. My children for example were 8, 13 and 5 months old. The 8 and 13 year old have maintained that they are so upset and angry at dad for him leaving them that they do not wish to speak to him.
I immediately took them to counselling and they have told this to the counsellor also. He says I cannot and must not "force" them to talk to him, but to continue to encourage them to. I do. Though it pains me because they dont know the facts, the lies, the whole case info, and I will not tell them at such young ages. I do. I even put his phone number on the refridgerator showing them whenever they feel the want or need to call dad, JUST DIAL HIS NUMBER.

[got2bkid]

IronMama said "The 8 and 13 year old have maintained that they are so upset and angry at dad for him leaving them that they do not wish to speak to him."

IronMama, as the parent it is your job to explain clearly to your children that their father did NOT leave them, but simply that the relationship between the two of you has ended. You must explain to them he is still their father and loves them as much as always. YOU must insist that they continue to have a relationship with their father whether they want to at this point or not. To hear that kids this young believe that their father left THEM is heart wrentching. He left YOU not THEM and I disagree with the counsellor, you must make them call/visit their dad. They are children. The sooner they re-establish a relationship with their father the better. Not all counsellors know what they are talking about.

Do you put aside your hurt feelings from whatever things he did when the kids are around? Do you think your anger at their dad shows in ways you are unaware of and they pick up on it? Children are SO intuitive, and you have to be very careful. Kids that age can be stubborn, but the longer they go staying "mad at dad" the harder it will be to mend later.

[representingself]

I immediately took them to counselling and they have told this to the counsellor also. He says I cannot and must not "force" them to talk to him, but to continue to encourage them to. I do. Though it pains me because they dont know the facts, the lies, the whole case info, and I will not tell them at such young ages.

IronMama..... your children never need to know the facts of your case. The "lies and case info" are your burdens to bear.

I agree with G2BK....

Your marriage is over, and I am sure that you are angry and hurt.... but your kids are being shoved into the middle of your fight.

You have to encourage them to continue a relationship with their Father.... it is so important for them to fix this feeling of abandonement they have right now.

You don't want them to feel like they were not good enough, do you?

You don't want them to feel like this is their fault... do you?

You don't want them to feel remourse for the rest of thier lives, if they turn thier backs on thier own Father?

You have to try and stop thinking about the present and focus on the long term effects this will have on the children.....

[Justforkids]

Ironmama,

I do not know the details of your particular case, but I agree with Got2bkids and Representingself, you must always try to encourage the kids to continue a relationship with their father unless the father just simply vanishes from the children's live then there is nothing you could do.
Maybe I should provide more details of my case so everyone understands what we are talking about. I have been looking after the kids 2-3 days a week after school in the last five years (we separated but still lived in the same house). About a month a half ago, she moved with the kids without my consent. At the time she told the kids that they will still see daddy on the same weekdays and some weekends and holidays. In the first week after they moved (before school started), she refused to tell me exactly where the kids were other than an address she told me that they moved to. When I finally saw the kids at school two weeks later, the kids told me that they were not supposed to see me as there was no agreement yet. It is clear that the mother was manipulating the kids as how would the kids know there should be an agreement for them to see me and how would they know such agreement was not in place. The children kept refusing to my access providing different reasons every time I was there to pick them up. About two weeks ago, through her lawyer, she and I finally reached an agreement for the access; however, nothing change after we have an agreement, she still interferes with my access to the children. The children still refuse my access with no valid reason and now they are telling me that they will see me after the court (I assume that the mother told them that they will see me after the court decides the custody issue). It is very clear that she actively alienating the children against me and denying my access to the children. What is even worst is that all I could do is to place my hope at the court. As my previously retained lawyer told me and I think most of us would agree: "courts are not meant for the family".
Currently I am working on obtaining an order for access by way of 14B motion pertaining to our agreement. Failing that I will resume my urgent motion. Can someone please tell me if I can ask the court to assign a psychiatrist or counsellor to help the children?
The children talk with me normally but just refuse to my access even though they were made aware that there is an agreement between mom and daddy. It is apparent that the mother told them not to come with me and I could feel the difficult position they were in. I believe that she has been couched by some people who have very well understanding of the system how to play these dirty tricks.
As mentioned by Miserable, it is very unfortunate that some parents seem to believe that it's ok to alter the child's feelings. Further, it is very sad that some parents are taking advantage of the system but still have the nerve to claim that they are acting on the best interest of the child.<O</O
<O</O
Thanks to everyone for your advices and suggestions, it has been very helpful. But honestly it is a horrible experience going through and that is why I want to share my experience so hopefully others can avoid getting into this kind of situation.

[IronMama]

RepresentingSelf and Got2bkid,

I am thankful that I am not one to be easily lead/easily disturbed/ or to be taken on any kind of a GUILT TRIP.
I am thankful I AM STRONG!
You are correct in saying you DO NOT KNOW my case or the particulars of it.
My Children's father LEFT THEM.
My ex-husband LEFT ME. HE LEFT US!
HE turned HIS BACK ON HIS CHILDREN. THAT was ALL HIS DOING and no one can try to make me feel any guilt or any other emotion, EVER.

HE WALKED BY HIS CHILDREN WITHOUT EVEN SAYING HELLO TO THEM, simply because I went to the court for a divorce an Child Support. I had to figure out what to tell them when they asked me why is Dad not talking to them. Why didnt he say hello.

HE LEFT HIS BOYS when they needed him most. HE ABONDONED THEM.What HE did to them is tantamount to Psychological/Emotonal ABUSE.
Why then would I NEED TO FORCE MY KIDS who are ENTITLED to their feelings, upon an ABUSER?
Wont happen!
I have always encouraged them to call him or to speak to him when he calls but I WILL NEVER force them.
Noone could FORCE HIM TO CALL THEM OR COME PICK THEM UP FOR A SOCCER GAME when I first served him papers....that lasted for 1 YEAR! Then he began calling.


For everyone on here I would like to mention the word NARCISSIST.
Google it and then some of you might find the root cause of your dilemas. I sure did.