Child Abduction?

[divorceakai]

Still legally married and living together but very much separated emotionally
Mother doesnt want to go travel to USA while the 12 yr old kids want to go
Can I plan a plan a short travel with the kids across the border? WIll it be called abduction, even when am ready to provide her all info on the dates, itenary, hotel info etc?
Can she report this to police (unconsented travel)?

[donaldD]

Still legally married and living together but very much separated emotionally
Mother doesnt want to go travel to USA while the 12 yr old kids want to go
Can I plan a plan a short travel with the kids across the border? WIll it be called abduction, even when am ready to provide her all info on the dates, itenary, hotel info etc?
Can she report this to police (unconsented travel)?

If you have to ask then the best option is not to go; the child is 12, find something else to do.
Get divorced and move on.

She can call it anything she likes and make a big deal out of it. It does not matter if it is true or not: "he is crazy, he drugged me and told me was going to harm himself and our child!" Then after that the creativity is boundless. He hit me, he yells at me. None of it has to be true and it all can make a serious mess of lives.

It will be far better for all 3 of you if you divorce as "friends" and in agreement. You don't need lawyers at first, you need the same understanding and agreement via separation agreement.
Record even normal conversations but don't count on any recordings being useable in court. Avoid court; do a rock solid separation agreement. The difference can 5K in legal fees and zero court time to 150K in legal fees and years of court time. Get it done and move on with better lives.
Split the money, split the parenting, making sure she is working helps a lot. Accept a downgraded lifestyle for a while if need be, what matters is being happy and being able to move on.

[StillPaying]

You are married and taking basically your teenager, not a young child, on a trip you both want to go on. There's no custody orders or anything stopping you from doing it.

You've notified ex on the dates, itinrary, etc, and the child can talk/ message your ex too. Ex can claim abduction and make a big deal out of it, but that'll only go against her and get her in trouble with police and judge... no need to wait for divorce, that's years away; go on the vacation and have a great time with your kid!

The only issue is you wouldn't have a travel consent letter. But that's rarely an issue ever. It's usually only the Canadian immigration on the way back into Canada who asks for it. You can just confirm that she knows about the trip, you live together and are going home now, and even show emails/texts you both sent to her letting her know. Her response, denying you permission, doesn't need to be shown.

Enjoy your trip and let your kid have fun! No need to worry about crazy potentials of "serious mess of lives".

[Tayken]

WIll it be called abduction, even when am ready to provide her all info on the dates, itenary, hotel info etc?
Can she report this to police (unconsented travel)?

You can report anything you want to the police. Will they react is the question.

For a criminal child abduction by a parent it is covered under Section 281 (no custody order in place) and Section 281 (custody order in place).

Section 283(1) of the Criminal Code of Canada outlines the offence of abduction of a child under the age of fourteen years. This section criminalizes the conduct of parents, guardians, or anyone who has the lawful care or charge of a child, who takes, entices away, conceals, detains, receives, or harbours a child with the intent to deprive a parent, guardian, or any other person who has lawful care or charge of the child, of their possession.

Police can not act on 283.(1) or 283.(2) without Crown consultation with the Chief Federal Prosecutor and on consent of the Attorney General. Super complex stuff to get.

As you are not traveling with the intent to deprive the other parent of the possession of the child then you have nothing to worry about. If you provide the itinerary and full disclosure you are clearly demonstrating that you are seeking to take, entice, conceal, detain, etc... of the child in question. Police generally won't get involved as its often a "civil matter".

What the other parent can do is contact the passport services for a child under 14 years and put a notice on about travel requiring consent.

But, as others have said: DO NOT BOTHER TRAVELING IF IT IS ONLY GOING TO CREATE A PROBLEM.

Resolve your custody, residence and other family law matters first.

[StillPaying]

What the other parent can do is contact the passport services for a child under 14 years and put a notice on about travel requiring consent.

But, as others have said: DO NOT BOTHER TRAVELING IF IT IS ONLY GOING TO CREATE A PROBLEM.

Resolve your custody, residence and other family law matters first.

The other parent would only be shooting themselves in the foot by reporting this to passport services in order to prevent the trip. There's no risk and they have all the details needed, plus an older child who can remain in contact with them the entire time.

Any judge would allow this short vacation, especially to usa, where ex has zero just excuse for refusing other than pure spite.

I wholeheartedly disagree in letting an ex dictate when you can travel for fear of conflict. They're an ex - conflict will always exist. If ex has a good reason to refuse, then ok, but if they don't - any conflict created would only go against them once this is before the court. This includes any passport services unnecessary conflict they create. OP shouldn't fear this - ex should.

Resolving the matter first would be nice, but they haven't even started anything yet. This is months, most likely a year away still before any real orders are made. Child suffering, not being allowed to vacation, on what appears to be a vacation the family normally takes together, is not the answer. Conflict with ex, even a possible vindictive one, will always be there. They don't have to go, but the remaining family shouldn't be held hostage at their will.

100% I would go; moreso as this is the child asking to go, and I would make sure they had the greatest time ever without the grumpy ex. Any passport services issues or anything else, I would have my tickets in hand and bring an urgent motion for permission.

[Tayken]

The other parent would only be shooting themselves in [the foot by reporting this to passport services in order to prevent the trip. There's no risk and they have all the details needed, plus an older child who can remain in contact with them the entire time.

Risk could be high. Don't know how this person would react if the police come to do a check on them. Police, when contacted by a mother, unfortunately, often do not use their best judgement. The OP may be on edge and get himself into a whole with police trying to explain his rights. If you don't want to talk to police or have the incident ever happen the best way to do that is to avoid it... until such time there is a proper agreement in place or order on the matter.

Any judge would allow this short vacation, especially to usa, where ex has zero just excuse for refusing other than pure spite.

Yes a judge would but, this OP doesn't seem to have the desire to file first on a travel request. So, without that court order clearly stating it... The police would be confused. The border guards will be confused. Schooling police and border guards often fail for men and many of them find themselves with bigger issues that have a greater impact on their custody and residency disputes. So, not knowing the OP my advice is to avoid conflict. Even if it is their "right". Some of the "professionals" involved may not understand the basics of law and most of them hate being told what the "law is". Even from an Officer of the Court (an actual lawyer!).

I wholeheartedly disagree in letting an ex dictate when you can travel for fear of conflict. They're an ex - conflict will always exist. If ex has a good reason to refuse, then ok, but if they don't - any conflict created would only go against them once this is before the court. This includes any passport services unnecessary conflict they create. OP shouldn't fear this - ex should.

Had to say what the whole sum of the matter in this is. All we know is we have a parent wanting to travel in a high conflict situation. Given its high conflict there is a birds nest of other challenges no doubt and reducing conflict and complexity should be the objective in my opinion.

Resolving the matter first would be nice, but they haven't even started anything yet. This is months, most likely a year away still before any real orders are made. Child suffering, not being allowed to vacation, on what appears to be a vacation the family normally takes together, is not the answer. Conflict with ex, even a possible vindictive one, will always be there. They don't have to go, but the remaining family shouldn't be held hostage at their will.

No child "suffers" by not going on a vacation. The vast majority of children in Canada never have this. Its a 1% problem really. Many people struggle to feed their children let alone go on lavish trips.

100% I would go; moreso as this is the child asking to go, and I would make sure they had the greatest time ever without the grumpy ex. Any passport services issues or anything else, I would have my tickets in hand and bring an urgent motion for permission.

Again, don't know the finances or where they are in the midst of their case. Lawyers involved? Does he have the capital to invest in a motion? Is travel an "urgent" matter before the court and will they even hear it? etc...

I am of the opinion that without the full picture the simplest advice is to avoid conflict.

[StillPaying]

I do understand your point.

Provided OP can talk, and doesn't lose his cool and attack, it's highly unlikely police will do anything in a family matter. It would be no more than a conversation, and one where OP could ignore and still be ok.

A short trip across Rainbow Bridge is hardly for the 1%ers. When the kids are used to this trip though and look forward to it, it will affect them negatively. Not the end of the world, but a "suffering" they experience for no good reason. Hearing mum's mad at dad or vice versa will affect them more on top of the 'can no longer go' bad feelings.

If they were already before the court, any judge would sign off on this trip right away. If not, provided there was history and good reason for the trip, and money already spent - I believe an urgent motion would be allowed and trip approved. No lawyer needed.

~ Avoid conflict when possible but don't allow a vindictive ex to control you either. And start the divorce process; can't play the victim forever.

[Tayken]

~ Avoid conflict when possible but don't allow a vindictive ex to control you either. And start the divorce process; can't play the victim forever.

I am of the opinion the energy, time and cost should be invested in a FULL AND FINAL settlement (or order) prior to travel. We just differ on the opinion. These side battles in family law just, in my opinion, elongate the time it takes to get to get to a FINAL agreement/order. Agreement/Order that is marked FINAL is more important in my opinion. When you one-up on small motions for things like this just enrages the other party and makes the time to resolution increase as they try to one-up you back and no one focus on getting to FINAL settlements/orders. They can often be a huge distraction and just add fuel to the conflict fire.

Not saying you are "wrong". Just presenting a different strategy on how to get the whole sum of the problem solved as a FINAL order/agreement.

[StillPaying]

I do agree with what you're saying - and it's great advice for all who come to read it! This is how it should be!

Unfortunately, it's just my own experience that has left me more cynical. My ex had zero interest in settling, and ignored all the judges' recommendations/warnings. Trial was my only option (twice) and was always years out. The vacations, including the motions needed to take them, were always much needed for the kids and I to maintain the sanity along the journey.