x-wife wants to move kids out of province

[needinfo123]

thanks for reading in advance.
maybe someone has had this situation.

lost job and then caught wife cheating last year. she had good job, could have survived financially. She chose to leave. lost house. finances in shambles. she takes 3 younger biological children with her. Eldest step child decides to stay with me. she refused to pay any support. she now lost job and faces eviction. She carries on 3 mth phone relationship with new boyfriend makes one visit of 5 days to him in another province. Upon her return informs me she wishes to move to his province into his residence and take kids with her. she has offered to forgo any child support to intice me to agree.

the decision I have to make is which is the lesser of 2 evils.

If I agree to let them go:
- who is this guy, untried relationship possible danger to children
- If relationship doesn't work out distance and cost to bring them back
- Change of jurisdiction and costs involved
- she can change her mind anytime about child support

If I don't agree to let them go:
- children angry at me for not letting them go (they've been brainwashed)
- X will undoubtedly want a major court battle to deny me any access to children (Childrens advocate involved, children have been coached)

and more.

what to do. Has anyone had a similar situation?

[FL_Needs_To_Change]

You can seek on an emergency bases, an order prohibiting her move out of province, and clearly explain how the move would emotionally be stressful, including not being able to see you, and moving away from friends and family and how this would harm the children. Stay child focused, make sure all your issues revolve around the children, stay focused, do not say things like I think, I want, speak from the view of the children.

The courts do not look well on parents that unilaterally decide to move children far from the visiting parent, as this is not in their best interests. It only demonstrates that she is far more focused on her desires then the well being of the children. She is NOT child centered, so you must be. Include this also, and the short duration of the "long distance" relationship. That there is no base for the move since she hardly knows this person and that you fear that she may have clouded judgement where this person is concerned.

[needinfo123]

Thank You FL_Needs_To_Change,

I had to deal with many issues before I made my decission and, finally decided that the kids leaving was not in their best interest.

I had my lawyer file a motion and it was adjourned for 3 weeks as she has to get a new lawyer but, she can't leave our jurisdiction for now.

I have met with the childrens lawyer who agrees with my decision but, she oI believe has the job of who will be the better father to my kids. I'm afraid I will be fighting a battle with someone who is financially stable at the moment as I am not due to this divorce.

My X has of course made me out to be the terrible Ogre of a Dad that the kids are afraid of. The Kids lawyer told me she doesn't feel the kids are afraid of me. My X is of course livid with my decision and has told me to be prepared for a lengthy affidavit from her opening all the cans of worms.

Does a judge really care about the he said, she said? for every piece of s*&t she throws at me I have the same to throw back but, have been trying to take the higher moral ground. Oh, and I can't believe adultry doesn't mean anything anymore!

[Kimberley]

Continue taking the high road & do not stoop to her level. If she wants to behave that way, do not react to her in the same manner, as this will not bode well in the long run. Remember why you're doing this, for the kids, they are what's important in this.

[FL_Needs_To_Change]

My experience with an ex that tries to slander the other, try not to address each and every point, rather sum things up. Say something like, paragraphs 1 through 10, can be disputed via document labelled Exhibit A to C. Focus on those issues that are relevant, and summarize at the end that you are child centered, and acting in the best interest of the children and what is best for them. Do not try to say things like mom is lying or mom is trying to defame me, etc.

The judge will see the difference and understand she is focused on making you look bad rather then dealing with the real issues.

If she insists on using the other persons financial position as a means to show she (he) can better provide for the children, then make a point of stressing that you are the biological father and that the financial stability of a stranger bears no merit where the best interest of the children are concerned. As long as you can give them love and affection, that's all they want or need from you. There is no replacing a biological father's love in the eyes of a child.

[needinfo123]

OK here i am several months later and have been to court 3 times regarding her wanting to take the kids out west. The judges have upheld the decission to not let her move the kids. The Kids are angry with me now as they have been sold a bill of goods about moving and I have not let them. My X is still insisting on going and is trying anything in her power to get her way ie: threatening to drag out all our dirty laundry in court and causing more damage to both me and of course the whole family. She has made offers of no childsupport etc. if I let her go. I am getting to the point of maybe I should let them go and see if it works out. If it works out great, If it doesn't which is more than likely I end up being the hero by saving the day. If I don't let them go then of course there will always be the "you denied us a chance at a better life" story. Anyone have any thoughts.

[paris]

You haven't been fighting this for 5 months to just give up have you? How much child support is the trade-off?

How old are these 4 children? And how has she been supporting herself and going to lawyers if she lost her job?

Kids will not hold this against you forever, especially young ones. Nothing good can come out of these 3 little ones being away from you, or for the older one to be away from his mother.

If you give consent now, you'll have no recourse later. If it doesn't work out for her, she just might find another guy a whole other province away.

Your decision, but those are my thoughts.

[dadtotheend]

OK here i am several months later and have been to court 3 times regarding her wanting to take the kids out west. The judges have upheld the decission to not let her move the kids. The Kids are angry with me now as they have been sold a bill of goods about moving and I have not let them. My X is still insisting on going and is trying anything in her power to get her way ie: threatening to drag out all our dirty laundry in court and causing more damage to both me and of course the whole family. She has made offers of no childsupport etc. if I let her go. I am getting to the point of maybe I should let them go and see if it works out. If it works out great, If it doesn't which is more than likely I end up being the hero by saving the day. If I don't let them go then of course there will always be the "you denied us a chance at a better life" story. Anyone have any thoughts.

Don't for a minute believe that she will forego CS if you let her move. You can even put that into a written court endorsed agreement and as soon as the kids are gone, she will apply for CS and will get it because it's in the kids best interest.

There is nothing new in your story today except that the kids are po'ed at you. Mom is still threatening the dirty laundry, but whatever she has tried to date hasn't worked yet has it? Don't get sidetracked by the he said she said, it doesn't matter.

Stay with it, you will prevail, especially if you remain child focused and stay out of the gutter. Let her be in gutter. Your kids will thank you later when they are old enough to get it.

[needinfo123]

Thanks for your thoughts, They are helpfull but, Ifind myself waivering as this battle will porbably get worse before it gets better. I unforunatly am also not in a great position financialy or mentally anymore to cope with her constant attacks on me through the childrens lawyer, family services, and other things she is doing to undermine and try to bury me. I'm still at about 75% behind my original decision of not allowing er to take the kids out of province. It seems as though I am the one under a microscope and constantly having to defend myself.

[dadtotheend]

I went through attacks via the OCL, CAS, litigation and otherwise too. You're not alone.

Get to a counsellor and have some talks and get some validation about how and what you're doing, and how you can do even better than you already are.

Remain child focused and stay resolved and you will come out the other side with the proper result for your children.

[needinfo123]

Last time when we were in court about a month and a half ago after the judge upheld the previous judges ruling on no leaving the province the judge asked my X or I if we had anything to say. I stood up and suggested that maybe the X and I could try to work things out on our own without wasting the courts time and money as we are both using legal aid. I took this comment to be one of lets strategize getting this family back on track by working together. She took this as an opportunity to push the issue of moving out of province. The kids have been coming over for their visits but, the relationships are now laboured of course. Last week was my birthday and no call from the Kids. This last Saturday was my access and she called at 10am saying kids did not want to come. I explained to her that she had an obligation to encourage the kids as much damage has been done (court ordered. Judge slammed her in court and noted her in the file as potentially allianating the children from me and if it continued she could stand to lose the kids). So, no kids Saturday. Friends had planned a birthday party for me with the kids as focus. I receive from her lawyer on Friday a proposal that if I let them go out of province she will allow me to credit any cs towards visiting the kids and/or having them 1 month of the year either during the summer or broken up over other holiday periods. My immediate reaction "No Way". I speak with my lawyer today and ask him if this is at all possible to negotiate such a thing. My lawyer says yes, it is possible given the distance and the undue hardship it creates in the access arrangement but, as my situation improves financially that could change.I tell my lawyer that my answer is still NO but, wanted some clarification. He tells me he understands my dilemma by saying it's like being in the store and your child wants chocolate. If you give them the chocolate you know they are going to be sick but, then your the hero for giving it to them and the hero for comforting them when their sick. In the alternative you as a parent say no and the child is angry with you.

It seems she has come to the end of her leash now. She has to be out of her residance by the end of this month. I'm assuming the current fellow that fell for her charms has had a change of heart. She doesn't have a place to go. She says she had applied for social housing but, can't get that in time and believes she will end up in a shelter with the kids. So now of course I am to blame for the predicament she finds herself in. She believes her only saving grace is this new fellow out of province and I am standing in the way of her and the kids living a normal life. I always knew it wasn't a question of If. It was a question of when.

So here I find myself having to re assess my decision again. Any thoughts would be helpfull.

I have spoken to family and friends and of course the opinions are varied. I wonder if anyone has faced a similar situation and can give me some forsight of what might come.

We did have normal life at one time and it kills me to see the kids go through this.

[standing on the sidelines]

fight for your rights as a father. I have to question her ability to be a good parent when all it seems she is worried about is what she wants and hurting you. She would rather the kids live with her in a shelter then have the kids come live with you. As for the child support being applied towards visiting the kids I would really wonder if you could trust her to live up to an agreement even one in writing. She has already proven her track record with visitation now. She moves out of the province and I bet that she will try to keep the kids away from you and make new guy "dad".

I cannot stress this enough, do not give up. In the end the kids will see how mom acted and how dad acted and they will open their eyes. Good luck and lots of hugs

[dadtotheend]

Mom doesn't appear to be able to differentiate her own needs from those of your children.

You did the right thing at court by suggesting that you try to work things out, while she continues to push a laughing stock proposal for the kids. You appear to be the reasonable parent, while she appears out to lunch.

I agree, DO NOT GIVE UP, you are at the precipice of sole custody. If she is facing eviction from her home, I would strongly consider an emergency motion for interim sole custody before she is evicted. The ony thing that will operate against you is the status quo, that appears to put primary residence at Mom's home. Pretty hard to maintain a status quo if you've just lost your job (why did that happen?) and been kicked out of your home. A judge would have to be insane to allow the kids to go live in a shelter instead of with you. The media would, or should, eat that decision alive.

Continue to document the denials of access, and the alienation evidence.

What does your lawyer say about her being homeless with the kids???!!! Where is the OCL? Have you had your disclosure meeting yet? Is the investigation still going on? The OCL's recommendation will almost certainly be the decisive factor to the court.

From what you are saying, it sounds outrageous that she even has the kids, let alone is still pushing to move them with her to another province. What little of a parenting plan she had months ago appears to have distintegrated with the demise of her long distance telephone relationship.

As for the lawyer's proposal, it never ceases to amaze me the balls these clowns have in the face of such overwhelming evidence. How the lawyer works up the guts to present such a pathetic offer to buy you out of your kids lives while at the same rolling the dice on the kids future is WAY beyond me. It makes me wonder whether your ex is pulling the strings against his advice.

If it wasn't so important for the kids, this would be downright laughable!

[needinfo123]

Thank you all so much for your help with this. It has definatley helped with my resolve to hold my ground.

Earlier this evening I spoke with my x father in-law who was not aware of the details of course but, now is. He is also opposed to her taking the children out of province but, unfortunatley does not have much influence over her nymore. He also stated his anger at her for denying me acces to the kids.

to clarify some of your questions:

The job she had while we were still together that could have seen this family through it's rough times was lost due to poor performance. She was too busy living the high life with her new found freedom. She got another job in the same outside sales capacity last summer and I watched the kids for her while she settled into her new position. She lost this job after 3 weeks also, for poor performance or who knows. She was not entitled to E.I. as I believe there was a penalty period. I believe she started collecting E.I. but was then involved in a car accident about 3 months ago for which she is now on accident benefits. My 3 Kids were in the car and I was not informed of the accident untill many weeks had passed. Kids were not injured but, apparently she was. She showed up in court with a neck brace on lol. Car was a write off and it was rear ended and she was pushed into the car in front or so the story goes.

Her current living arrangements were kept secret from me with the excuse that I would harrass her if I knew were she lived. She had me charged with criminal harrasment last year. Charges were dismissed as being frivolous. It was all a game to make me look bad. So, her current living arrangements are being hidden from me to hide the truth. She had obviously found some poor sap here to foot her bill but, I guess he's had enough so now its the guy's turn who is out of province. She's for lack of a better word on a self destructive path of goldigging and taking my kids along for the ride.

The OCL was put on hold by her after the last court session where I suggested her and I talking. It's been about 2 weeks and we are obviously not negotiating anything here. I had planned to the call the ocl lawyer tommorrow to ask her what state of mind she feels the kids are in as the 13 year old boy is being hit the hardest by this whole scenario and doesn't want to visit with me. This is the same kid that chummed with me all the time. He was probably the closest to me of all the boys. The OCL told me that the kids are angry with me. I can understand their anger.

We havent had a disclosure meeting. I'm not quite sure what that is.

at this time I know the kids are just doing as mom instructs probably for fear of reprisal from her or being brainwashed so I worry that if I try for sole custody that the ocl will listen to Kid's current wishes with no regard as to the real reasons why. We can't prove shes doing anything other than where she might herself trip up which will probably happen in the long term. Not a question of if but, when

I have given some thought to a response to her proposal. When faced with her demand that I should allow them to go as it is better for their futures I will reply as follows. My dear, This gentleman that you are in love with in the other province could simply help you financially for the time being while the kids finish the school year, and counselling here if he in fact is in love with you as you claim.

Some further complications: I currently live in a large home with roomates. The fellow that I live with used to be our neighbour. Our families were relativley close and the kids grew up together, bbq's, outings etc. Both girls decided they were no longer happy and we got the 2 for one deal lol. My roomate and I got this large home together to minimize costs and to be able to maintain a decent accomodation for our kids when we do get to see them. We do have an agreement that if one of us should get our kids the other if required would seek an alternative living accomodation. Having roomates is not the greatest thing when trying to get your kids.

The X Is trying to bring up the past and unfortunatley I did make a mistake 10 years ago. I was right in being angry but, wrong in how I handled it. We had an altercation. Charges dismissed. I've admitted to OCL that we had an altercation and that I handled it wrong. It has been pointed out to me that if she had such an problem with what happened 10 years ago why did she have another child and stay for 10 more years. Nevertheless it's become an issue now as the OCL have asked permission to pull old police files. We have not moved ahead with this as the X put OCL on hold for us to try to resolve this matter.

[dadtotheend]

Get the OCL back in action. Do not allow them to close the file. They are your best hope.

That said, you don't really elaborate on what happened 10 years ago. As long as the incident didn't involve your kids and if the charges were dismissed, they probably aren't going to care about it too much (you hope). You'd best sign the waivers now that that horse has left the barn. Let them check with the police and the other collateral sources, like your families, caregivers, teachers, doctors, etc.

I did some stuff I wasn't proud of before the kids were born and I was up front about it with the OCL investigator. Don't dance around those issues with them. You don't want them thinking that you have other skeletons in the closet that they weren't able to find.

The OCL has seen alienation hundreds of times before. You have to trust that they will see it and make the proper assessment. These guys are trained to look for this stuff. They know how to I.D. it and assess it for what it is. If your kids have been brainwashed by their Mom, the OCL should see it. All of this is based on the hope that the investigator you were assigned has a reasonable amount of experience, which is not a guarantee.

Whatever you do, continue to act like you did in the court. DON'T bad mouth or run down the Mom. Make your case based on your superior parenting plan (not too hard to do it appears).

Regarding your roommate, who is a father, play that card as a strength. He can assist you in your parenting plan, providing support for you as a parent, as you do for him.

A disclosure meeting happens when the investigator has completed his/her work. It's a disclosure of the investigator's/lawyers findings and you will be told of the recommendations that will be presented to the court in the formal OCL report, which will be prepared some weeks after your disclosure meeting.

It's also an opportunity for the OCL to assist you in settling the issues. If you are able to come to agreeement at the disclosure meeting that is more or less in line with the recommendations, then the OCL will not file it's formal report (which will contain all the dirty laundry that they found) with the court and will just endorse your agreement. Otherwise they will file it into the continuing record and a judge will almost for sure counsel the parties to accept the recommendations at a settlement/trial management conference and settle in accordance with them.

If that doesn't work, then you get to go trial, where the OCL recomendations will be tested in court. The investigator will be put on the stand and required to defend his/her position. But you won't get that far, trust me. It will settle before then.

Regardless of the stage in the process at which you settle, or have a judge settle for you at trial, the OCL recommendations will probaby be the difference. Think about it, the OCL will be the best indedendant, objective evidence that the court will get.