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Standard for accepting 'change in living arrangements'

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  • Standard for accepting 'change in living arrangements'

    I have looked and researched, I promise...but still I have this question:

    Is there a generally accepted period of time which is used to say that a child's living arrangements have changed?

    i.e. Youngest daughter has just started reconnecting with OP. She as spent time over the last four weeks with OP, but before that, only saw her once in six months. I need to vary the existing support order which still has me paying full table for both daughters. I know what I'd like to do, but generally, would it be more acceptable to vary to:

    a) 50/50 (based on the past month)
    b) full table amount (based on the past 7 months)

    P.S. has anyone every heard of a case where a judge has diverted from table amounts because of withholding or actively coaching the child not to spend time with OP.

    For context...these are actual texts to my younger from just before Christmas when she started reaching out to spend more time:

    1: First time youngest was going to come home after school in almost a year

    OP: "I think you should ask to go out eat. Just say you would feel more comfortable – please. After the stuff he has done lately – I don’t like this situation – so go out"


    2: Second time youngest was going to come home after school a month later

    OP: Your Dad just told your teacher that you’d be home tonight and he will go over science. I can’t tell the teacher that you are here full time and then he send that. Can you just go out please for dinner. Just tell him that what you want. Otherwise I can’t tell the teachers that



    3: The first time in four and a half years that she would have slept at home. In the end, it was the last time she came home until she came home for good in the new year. (just a small portion of my daughter asking repeatedly that evening to stay:

    Daughter: I know you’re going to be mad at me and you can hate me because I feel like me saying this is going to get me in trouble, but I want to spend the night here, I told dad that I don’t want him in my work and I told him to not email anyone about it because I just want to be happy without feeling like I’m making stuff worse for you guys, last night you told me to just think about it and I have been all day, and I want to try staying here, not saying I’m not happy with you because I am, but I want to try this, I haven’t told dad that I want to stay the night and he hasn’t even asked me, I just wanted to tell you before I ask him.

    OP: Did you plan this? And then plan to text about it? This should be planned – and not on a school night – can you be home near 7:30 for the dogs


    Daughter: But I want to tonight, I want a say in it too, he’s my dad I should be aloud to chose when I want to stay with him, I have my computer because I was planning on finishing my math on it while dad was making dinner so I brought it (it was planned I just had to finish math). Mom I know I have to understand things, but Just let me have this, let me try please. I don’t want you mad at me I just, I just want you to try and understand.

    OP:NOT tonight XXX Omg You planned this

    4: Daughter was caught doing something she shouldn't and I had reached out to her to address it as best as I could:

    OP: Be rude I don’t care – he has no right to parent like that – he doesn’t really know shit and he didn’t care this am – he’s not the one helping you

    So you see, I'm really kind of hoping a judge will consider keeping the set-off amount so OP doesn't have a financial incentive to repeat the same. I think she'll try none the less. At our daughter's age (over 15) I"m not really thinking I want to use all that, plus past reports from the CAS and OCL to go for full custody or anything. At this point, our daughter trusts she always has a home here and I don't want to force her into a position of feeling as though she can't rebuild a relationship with her mother.

    Sorry for the long post.

  • #2
    Youre over thinking it. You already need to update for kid going away to school. If kid 2 is going to be with you and see her mom then it is reasonable to go to offset. By the time you get to a judge and can get a decision, you will already be staring down changing for the youngest. Just file the motion to change and request offset. Shes been with you long enough and you are still paying more than you technically owe.

    Comment


    • #3
      Just sent an e-mail as a last ditch to see if she'll file on motion on consent.

      If not, I'll file.

      Comment


      • #4
        Those texts are hard to follow and are a high conflict parents dream in court. Keep the kids out of it.


        CS is based on the care the child received during the year. Google "it is the hours that count ontario child support"


        If your child has declared they have changed residence and it is reasonable to assume it was not a rash decision and will stick then send the consent to your ex to sign or not sign. Sending a signed consent is much much better than an email.


        Until you do that there isn't much to do or say or fret about.

        Are you using a lawyer?

        Comment


        • #5
          I have consulted the same lawyer I have used for over decade and am waiting to hear back.

          I will look at sending the consent and see if she signs. I am not sure what you mean about those texts being a high conflict parent's dream in court. I don't want to engage with OP anymore than I have to, but how else, if she doesn't sign, do I demonstrate to the court she will make it difficult for our daughter to come home.e at all?

          I'll start with the order for her to sign and go from there I suppose. Our daughter knows she has her home here always. But I am worried, especially with older leaving for school in a week, that OP will do everything to try and keep younger with her.

          Comment


          • #6
            If your ex does Not agree to change the legal agreement to 50/50, you will have a very lengthy time process/expensive "trying" to get it changed and No guarantee that it will be changed. (That is my husband's and my personal experience).

            We always had his kids A LOT more time "Off" the agreement, ex would Never agree to change the legal agreement to reflect the true schedule going on. We spent a year and a half/settlement conference $15,000 9 years ago.....were then told an estimated 3 more years for trial and another $7,000. (We did Not have anymore money in the situation to continue--husband taken off work due to the stress of it all, blood pressure so high-at risk for heart attack/stroke.) Today the expenses are so much more from people I know dealing with family law matters currently.
            Good Luck!!

            Comment


            • #7
              This has to change one way or another. FROis trying to collect for two children at full table when one has been here 6 of the last 7 months and the older is moving to UN in a week.

              Moreover, CAS verified 'substance abuse' and 'fear of emotional harm' after a police response in January after police involvement with OP.

              The second is far more concerning. I'm trying to leave the door open for her being anywhere without money being an issue. I.e. if mom doesn't have to worry about paying me more, then maybe she'll let our younger (who just texted at 3:40 am saying she misses being home and wants to come home soon), be here with us if she needs.

              Heading to the courthouse this am

              Comment


              • #8
                The agreement can have the access at 50/50 and the child can live at one parents more than 60% of the time. The 2 are not mutually exclusive.


                Don't bring in the texts, wait until the other party denies that the child lives with you more than 60% of the time THEN get your plan together to prove it.


                I am not sure what you mean about those texts being a high conflict parent's dream in court. I don't want to engage with OP anymore than I have to
                They will say or some person may say you are causing improper influence on the child and alienating them from the other parent. You believe it not to be true but if there is something to argue the high conflict parent will argue and that costs you.


                Ditch the lawyer for now. Don't say anything about texts etc, no admissions. Just do the consent.

                Use the FRO guidelines and suggested wording to create a consent and post it for us anonymous people to look at. You can present that to your lawyer for review or your ex. If you made a mistake you can resubmit with it fixed, but someone else can verify this.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I will do just that. To be clear about the texts, those were texts OP sent to our daughter when she was looking for 'permission' to spend more time at her home here with me.

                  It follows a pattern of CAS stating in 2017 that they feared the mom was trying to 'sabotage' our daughter's relationship with me and the OCL in 2018 articulating five points where the OP was 'failing to support' our daughters relationships with me. So I firmly believe it will continue.

                  Thank you for the advice though, I will leave it all out until she refuses the set-off amounts and open movement between houses. A priori, making sure I'm always here if things go south between younger and OP again.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    None of the other stuff is necessary as your daughter is 15 and able to say where she wants to live. CS needs to be update anyway as kid 1 is off to school. Just update according to the two changes and leave all the other bullshit out. If your ex wants to respond with all the other bs then you can respond but not until.

                    Good luck!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Trix View Post
                      This has to change one way or another. FROis trying to collect for two children at full table when one has been here 6 of the last 7 months and the older is moving to UN in a week.

                      Moreover, CAS verified 'substance abuse' and 'fear of emotional harm' after a police response in January after police involvement with OP.

                      The second is far more concerning. I'm trying to leave the door open for her being anywhere without money being an issue. I.e. if mom doesn't have to worry about paying me more, then maybe she'll let our younger (who just texted at 3:40 am saying she misses being home and wants to come home soon), be here with us if she needs.

                      Heading to the courthouse this am
                      That is awful, like rockscan said, you Need to file a motion. Hopefully it goes well, fast, and in your favor.
                      These kinds of mothers often disagree, prolong things, they don't want to lose the child support money you've been giving thus far!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A month after my daughter came home, I stopped paying . Six months later, I have a 10k arrears and, in an unprecedented move, the FRO has agreed not to go to collections until the legal matter is resolved.

                        I was in touch immediately and explained the change in circumstance and they actually took it into consideration. Given that I lost the second house I had put together for our daughters while OP was overtly trying to stop them from reconnecting, I don't give it a second thought (well...not much).

                        Worst case they collect something later. Better that than trying to get the money back from OP (thought she has already agreed it should only be an offset amount from February to July).

                        In the interim, put together a great space for my daughter and finally able to support my older directly. Feels great.

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