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Child with one college diploma going to university, child support question

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  • #31
    Originally posted by terryfyde View Post
    I think I will go with a lawyer blog of general advice that is not drawing conclusions because it doesn't have the facts over someone on the internet whose is associated with someone and is providing a definitive answer with conclusive "facts" about employment,wages and course material/requirements that would be unreasonable to believe they know of the top of their heads and arguing that a diploma in Forestry is the same thing as a Degree in Forestry are the same thing.

    Perhaps you are a professor teaching Forestry or working in the upper levels of Forestry Management?


    You can always post those canli cases.



    The person asking the question will do as they please but hopefully after further investigation and perhaps a talk with their child.




    Thank You.

    The lawyers blog is a form of marketing telling people they should talk to a lawyer because things are complicated.

    Im not going to post reams of canlii cases when the search option is available to all.

    As for employment, go on some job boards and look. My husband works in the environmental field of which forestry is a part. There are plenty of jobs in it for college diploma owners. The pay in northern Ontario is very good. And there are a lot of jobs especially considering the fire issues in the summer. A geology degree has limited uses and is primarily seasonally based. Unless he is getting his masters the work is not year round and limited to construction or mining jobs that are few and far between.

    I never said I was an expert. I simply said I had the info to back up what I was saying and that the poster should call his exís bluff on her bullshit.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by rockscan View Post
      The lawyers blog is a form of marketing telling people they should talk to a lawyer because things are complicated.

      Im not going to post reams of canlii cases when the search option is available to all.
      You didn't post a single one.
      Here, I will link to another CANLII article: https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...7onsc6498.html
      This ruling supported continuing the CS while the children sought additional degrees so yes, judges can rule that way. They may also rule the other way but you don't want to post anything but "I said so".



      Originally posted by rockscan View Post
      As for employment, go on some johttps://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Bynarb boards and look. My husband works in the environmental field of which forestry is a part. There are plenty of jobs in it for college diploma owners. The pay in northern Ontario is very good. And there are a lot of jobs especially considering the fire issues in the summer. A geology degree has limited uses and is primarily seasonally based. Unless he is getting his masters the work is not year round and limited to construction or mining jobs that are few and far between.

      I never said I was an expert. I simply said I had the info to back up what I was saying and that the poster should call his ex�s bluff on her bullshit.
      But you don't have the info because if you did you would post it.


      I think I understand now. You and your husband are connected via the ether and that is why you are name dropping. He is connected to the environment and the environment is connected to the forest and the forest is connected to the ground which contains rocks so you know all by that chain of association. Correction, I do not get it.

      Let me name drop. I talk with the Minister of the Environment and Education for Ontario sometimes and so I am interconnected to the whole infrastructure and all their knowledge, I am omnipotent with knowledge! Diploma in Forestry is not the same as a degree in Forestry. I am not going to post any references or case law; that is out there for you to look up because it is common sense.


      It is common sense and that trumps in court and the law trumps common sense (ouch!). A diploma is not the same as a degree. If my child has a degree and wants to pursue a masters will then they get to do that with me paying for Child Support.


      Could they get a good job with their diploma or degree? Yes BUT they can do much better with further education and if the child has demonstrated that they have a reasonable chance to be better started in life via the education and the parents can afford it Child support continues.



      Don't take my word for it. Read the links of experts I posted and do some more research. The facts of this case are not fully known.

      Comment


      • #33
        Uh that case you posted?

        This is a high income family which values academic achievement and these are highly intelligent high achieving children. Under the circumstances particular to these parents and these children, do the Divorce Act and the Child Support Guidelines recognize an ongoing legal obligation for the Respondent to subsidize the Applicantís household through the child support regime while the children pursue PhD studies?

        [3] I have concluded that in the circumstances of this family with the level of parental income available to them, the academic expectations of the parents and the children and the demonstrated academic achievement of the children, continued entitlement to support would not be unreasonable. The governing factor is therefore one of need and the ability of the children to cover their own costs. The question is whether the father (the support recipient) remains financially responsible for the children because they are unable to support themselves.
        And if you do some more searching on similar cases you find the sameóhigh income earning parents who value education will always be ordered to support their kids.

        OPís case involves two parents with college diplomas themselves earning limited income. A judge is not going to order a second degree to be paid. And to the court, degree is interchangeable as it lists post secondary program of study whether that is a degree or a diploma. The program kid went into has employment available. There is no argument that he needs the other degree to be employed. That is what the court will consider.

        Not that any of this matters. Your continued posts in this forum demonstrate you want to be right no matter what anyone says. For OP, he got several answers to his question and he can go with what he wants.

        Comment


        • #34
          I have read many made up "facts"
          Here is another reference. Income of parent lower and they couldn't afford to retire. Child support continued.


          https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...resultIndex=11


          I am being quick with this but I read here that undergraduate studies were done (degree) and the subsequent education past that still allowed CS to be collected.
          [66] I have concluded that the father should support Natalie to her completion of the teacher’s college course of study. My reasons for granting support to that date are as follows: Natalie was living at home during her university and teacher’s college studies; she commenced her second degree immediately following her graduation from undergraduate studies; she was diligent in pursuing her studies and was enrolled full time; she completed her studies at D’Youville before reaching the age of 25; her decision to become a teacher was a reasonable one given her background; Natalie had a relationship with her father throughout her childhood and young adulthood which continues today; she was unable to obtain student loans as an undergraduate because of the combined incomes of her parents; she worked at part time jobs to contribute to her own education and earned significant income during her studies. I find her courses of study were congruent with her parents’ financial circumstances.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by terryfyde View Post
            I have read many made up "facts"
            Here is another reference. Income of parent lower and they couldn't afford to retire. Child support continued.


            https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...resultIndex=11


            I am being quick with this but I read here that undergraduate studies were done (degree) and the subsequent education past that still allowed CS to be collected.

            Apples and oranges. A bachelors degree does not equal employment anymore. Most kids with a BA need to go back to complete an additional degree to achieve employment. In this case kid planned to go to medical school, wasnít successful and chose teaching. It was always anticipated she would be continuing on from a first degree to secure employment.

            Did you read the whole decision? There was a lot in it outlining the argument about case by case but hereís the kicker:

            It is clear from the various authorities cited by counsel that courts recognize jurisdiction under s. 2(1) of the Divorce Act to hold parents responsible for children over sixteen during their period of dependency. How long that period continues is a question of fact for the trial judge in each case. There is no arbitrary cut-off point based either on age or scholastic attainment, although as these increase the onus of proving dependency grows heavier. As a general rule parents of a bona fide student will remain responsible until the child has reached a level of education, commensurate with the abilities he or she has demonstrated, which fit the child for entry-level employment in an appropriate field. In making this determination the trial judge cannot be blind to prevailing social and economic conditions: a bachelor's degree no longer assures self-sufficiency.
            Northís ex would need to demonstrate both need and abilities. On my view with the case law I have read over the years, judges base it on employability and need for additional education. Iím not saying his ex is wrong. Iím saying he should tell her no and then get a judge to decide.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by rockscan View Post
              IÔŅĹm saying he should tell her no and then get a judge to decide.
              With a cost award added on top of everything else, for being unreasonable. Again- not great advice.

              1. Mum has education, dad is successful and can afford it.
              2. There have been no gap years or delays.
              3. Kid finished diploma and wishes to continue for degree. (Goals, plans - not 180 into a new field, but a different area)
              4. This would benefit kid more.
              5. Mum relies on support.
              6. Continuing support (I'm guessing a year or two) so that kid's dreams are not affected is reasonable and most often ordered.

              If parents were uneducated and on assistance - then I'd hold out for a judge.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                Apples and oranges. A bachelors degree does not equal employment anymore. Most kids with a BA need to go back to complete an additional degree to achieve employment.
                With rare exception degree isn't equivalent to get a job. You are required to compete on the job market to find a job matching your degree and experience. This is where the hard reality comes to kids in their late 20th, that their parents (divorced or not) were not that wrong when they were saying "Bachelor or Master's degree in Art History won't secure your income, and would you consider something with better future instead". In cases when Family Court involved it easily gets worse, as essentially judge allows kid to stay not accountable for his choices till 25+, and then we get another member of society with few degrees on a welfare or working as a grocery store clerk in their 30th, but sure, it was in "best interest of a child"

                Comment


                • #38
                  The child has a diploma in Forestry.
                  I don't know if anyone here has been to college in Canada like I have and all of our experiences are different and not everything is a gimme but it doesn't take a lot of effort, time or above average intelligence to get a diploma. A degree is a different story and I have been to both. Degree can = 120K right form the start. Diploma maybe you get double minimum wage and there is a glass ceiling.



                  Many jobs that people apply for also have a condition that you have a degree, any degree, a diploma will not do.

                  The Alberta Government does it. Want an I.T. position with your 10 years of experience? Sorry, this other guy has 1 year of experience and English Degree.


                  So dying on this hill over this isn't a win.
                  A win = talk to child and present it as you are not required to continue paying child support but will so he can do better in life, do well. Or negotiate some cutoff for the CS may be a good move and present it as helping. The child may respect you more in your older years.


                  The person asking the question has the most insight on their personal life, a lawyer may provide an extra objective view.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Well my degree got me nothing. My diploma got me a job paying $90,000 to start and has raised to almost double since then. Ditto for my husband, siblings, colleagues and entire college class but hey, liberal arts forever!

                    Skilled trades require a diploma only to make a lot of money and they are in demand. Northern Ontario needs people in environmental, construction and skilled trades as the area is expected to start booming with the electric vehicle plants, mineral deposits, road construction and development.

                    The onus is on his ex to demonstrate that the degree is required for employment purposes. If kid has well paying employment options (and my two searches on workopolis and indeed showed $50 an hour to start) then she would be hard pressed to prove a degree in the area of $60,000 plus three years support is needed. Parents arenít expected to support their kids forever.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by StillPaying View Post
                      With a cost award added on top of everything else, for being unreasonable. Again- not great advice.
                      Please. He says no, she files in court, the case conference judge says he has to pay two extra years, he makes an offer and itís done.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by rockscan View Post
                        Please. He says no, she files in court, the case conference judge says he has to pay two extra years, he makes an offer and it�s done.

                        Not your life so it is easy to say it.
                        AKA you have no skin in the game and are unable to relate.


                        All that money that could be going lawyers and the risk of the other side saying "nope" I don't like that offer, they are entitled to full.
                        No good reason here to promote a conflict in court.


                        Informed discussion and resolution before court is intelligent.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I thank all of you for your passionate inputs. Lots of great info here, and things to think about also

                          I think I will let her file. I will see how the pre trial conferences go while representing myself, and see how things look from the people making the actual decision, and then I will decide if there is room to negotiate with the ex and her lawyer, or if I should lawyer up and go all the way.

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