Avoiding OCL and Section 30

[Tayken]

I have to agree with Tayken. In my experience the custody and access report was a colossal waste of time and money! The judge read the report and quoted what the children said according to her report to make an order that was effectively the opposite of the recommendations she had made. I was so glad the judge had common sense as the clinician had none.

^^^ THIS.

Some stats to consider everyone...

S.30 assessor or OCL Assessor (the person doing the work) does maybe 2-3 a year (a very good one).

A judge hears how many family law motions, conferences and trails a year?! SIGNIFICANTLY MORE than any ass-essor.

Who has more experience judging family situations? Judges.

[Stillbreathing]

I have to agree with Tayken. In my experience the custody and access report was a colossal waste of time and money! The judge read the report and quoted what the children said according to her report to make an order that was effectively the opposite of the recommendations she had made. I was so glad the judge had common sense as the clinician had none.

[Tayken]

I agree with this. My ex took a strong stance that I should have only EOW and barely any holiday time, despite us living 5 minutes apart. The CC and SC judges told her she was unreasonable, yet that did not sway her.

This is where your lawyer failed you in my humble opinion. If there was strong opinion given by conference judge your lawyer should have requested right then and there that they order a time for a long motion to be heard on the matter. The conference judge could have easily made a procedural order for a long motion that is preemptive on both parties to be heard at the next sitting. Your lawyer should have also asked that both parties be cross examined on their affidavit evidence.

One of two things happen.

1. An order for a long motion for custody and access is ordered, preemptive on both parties and there to be viva voce examination of both parents on their affidavit evidence.

or

2. The other party becomes violently reasonable and matters settle out.

Its rare a judge won't use this request to drive either the matter forward to the long motion or settlement.

Given the opportunity the court wants to hear evidence directly from the parents not through the broken telephone game of the OCL... In fact, many good lawyers that I watch destroy OCL and S.30 requests basically argue that point... I have never seen a single one of them not either get the long motion or settlement for what their client was asking for on custody and access.

Your case lingered because your lawyer failed to know how to get things done and fell into the OCL trap. You won't find most of the top tier lawyers getting sucked into OCL.

OCL and S.30 mean lawyers generally get more hours and more money.
Settlement means lawyers get less hours and less money.
Long motion means lawyers money and hours is capped as the results will be an order and mostly wrap up custody and access disputes. It will also test their abilities as a barrister.

[Tayken]

PS: The book report is not an original idea by me. Justice Lemon (Peel Region) does this to litigants... With the recommended book. :O

[Tayken]

Takyen I'm going to disagree with you here.

s.30s are not (globally) a waste of time, and case law is a bad source the measure their effectiveness. Keep in mind most cases settle, and even fewer get reported decisions. I've worked with many files where s.30s allowed parents to truly see their strengths and flaws, and develop into better co-parents. These aren't the types to go to trial.

These are the types of files that simply having the litigants read a 20$ book would suffice too. Reasonable people do not require a false clinician to show up and tell them how to parent. I have a collection of well over 200 Section 30 reports I have gathered over a decade. They are all boiler plate. So much so that the Honourable Madame Justice Mossip would say this out loud in her court room consistently whenever it was raised. She would recommend that the litigants read a book before spending big money on someone who was simply going to read the book to them.

What gets really funny is when you know the relationships between some of these "professionals" in the S.30 scam game. Especially in Toronto. I have the same custody and access "reports" from 4 professionals that are paragraph for paragraph similar with the only changes being children's names and litigants.

Once case the judge actually had to throw the report out because well, the professional forgot to um... change the children's names from the other case. See, if the court system was truly digital all this nonsense would be easily revealed and how little work these S.30 "ass-esors" actually do.

20$ solution to needing a S.30... Have both litigants read and write a book report on why everything written in this book is wrong and why they are not engaging in a tug of war... :O 40$, some time making clients contemplate their actions and I bet you would get the same result as a 60,000 ass-essment.

Tug of War: A Judge`s Verdict on Separation, Custody Battles, and the Bitter Realities of Family Court

S.30 needs to be governed by the Clinical Colleges... Until such time that they are they are useless documents that have no basis of clinical fact. They hide behind their colleges but, are not practicing in accordance with their college rules and use their titles when in fact, they shouldn't be even referred to their professional title...

Ask any S.30 assessor on the stand if their report is in accordance with their governing practice / college's recommendations and if the report is a medical record... Answer has to be "NO". If yes, print transcript and bring to the college as a complaint.

Too often people think that an S.30 is the "word of a Doctor" or a "diagnosis". Its actually not. Most use psycho-legal ontology incorrectly in their reports and at a disservice to our medical system.

I disagree they are a globally waste of time. Just like Naturopathy is a global waste of time.

"Why can naturopaths mislead the public about their credentials? Because no one bothers to stop them"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/natu...ials-1.4890971

Same-same with S.30 assessments... No one bothers to stop them... with the exception of a few...

[LMum]

Thanks Lmum.

High Conflict ex-couples react far differently than normal ex-couples.
That may screw up the results too.

I recall Working Dads case.....not as nice to the OCL

Trust me its been high conflict, not much normal about it. I was actually surprised it wasn't challenged. But I believe it was cause he didn't want to spend the money on extra legal fees, but I can't be sure. I think he just gave up, took his EOW, which by the way he picks and choses when he shows up, especially over the summer.

I'm late to the game here and have heard alot about WorkingDad. I'll have to go back and look into this at some point, sounds like a interesting case.

[pinkHouses]

Thanks Lmum.

High Conflict ex-couples react far differently than normal ex-couples.
That may screw up the results too.

I recall Working Dads case.....not as nice to the OCL

[LMum]

My experience with the OCL was a good one. They captured the issues and really listened to my sons views and wants. We didnt get a lawyer, my son was almost 12 at the time, he got a clinician. Now I may be bias as they sided in my favour, however there were issues with dad, and his parenting style, and well just his behaviour in general. That being said, I don't think its a waste of time. Recommendations are in effect, dad has not challenged and so far everyone is happy. Dad not so much in the beginning but seems to be fine with it.

[pinkHouses]

Thank you Tayken and Kinso. Mr. Diplomacy says "you are both right"

"That said, s.30s are not appropriate for all files. They're very expensive, and sometimes used as a hail mary or to economically bleed the other side."
^This except it was bleeding both sides.

My experience with Section 30s:
-Parents that are high conflict become even more high conflict.
-The lawyers were clearly negotiating for an assessor they knew would go their way; I could not stop it at that point.
-My assessor and the report was so bad and fictional that the lawyers would have torn her apart at trial but the bizarre conclusions were on paper and were leverage, it cost me a lot.
-I could tell the lawyers were not putting stock in it but they did use it to generate legal fees.

I recommend against a Section 30, I see it as a broken and abused system that is full of fakers and rigged results for hire.

Will let case conference judge decide on OCL and do what I can to avoid. Yes?

[Kinso]

Section 30 is a complete waste of time. The recent cases I have been reading with them involved its just a group of professionals that recommend their associates for various services racking up money on both parents. Its amazing how much money these crooks can rack up on a file of waring parents.

Takyen I'm going to disagree with you here.

s.30s are not (globally) a waste of time, and case law is a bad source the measure their effectiveness. Keep in mind most cases settle, and even fewer get reported decisions. I've worked with many files where s.30s allowed parents to truly see their strengths and flaws, and develop into better co-parents. These aren't the types to go to trial.

That said, s.30s are not appropriate for all files. They're very expensive, and sometimes used as a hail mary or to economically bleed the other side.

[Tayken]

The exes lawyer is demanded a Section 30, I told them no.

Good.

Section 30 is a complete waste of time. The recent cases I have been reading with them involved its just a group of professionals that recommend their associates for various services racking up money on both parents. Its amazing how much money these crooks can rack up on a file of waring parents.

Now the lawyer is demanding OCL come in and threatened a motion for one.

OCL doesn't take all cases. The probability of OCL being ordered is lower these days.

Its a "fishing expedition" for the other party and they are hoping the OCL or Section 30 will throw mud at you. Its a waste of everyone's time.

It might be they want my child to have a lawyer or they want it assessed.

They want someone to talk to the child and to say you are an awful parent that is manipulating the child. Its a waste of everyone's time.

1 month after our final settlement our child started living with me more than 60% now it is every night and the ex sees them 2 times a week. They were 11 now they are 13.

2 years later I am asking for back child support and custody.
There is conflict between me and the ex. The classic tug of war of 'willfully stupid, stupid, lying, making mistakes and withholding information' and me saying repeatedly asking for the same thing and having long messages. They stated I was controlling.

If I do not consent and a judge orders it does that mean I lose costs?
How do I know when the OCL or section 30 will be ordered?

Doubtful the OCL will engage in your case with the history you have an agreements already set forth as final. They are just throwing nonsense around. I would ignore and if it does go to motion basically say its a complex issue and needs court involvement as its a 3rd Party organization that doesn't just take walk ins... (OCL)

[pinkHouses]

The exes lawyer is demanded a Section 30, I told them no.
Now the lawyer is demanding OCL come in and threatened a motion for one.
It might be they want my child to have a lawyer or they want it assessed.

1 month after our final settlement our child started living with me more than 60% now it is every night and the ex sees them 2 times a week. They were 11 now they are 13.

2 years later I am asking for back child support and custody.
There is conflict between me and the ex. The classic tug of war of 'willfully stupid, stupid, lying, making mistakes and withholding information' and me saying repeatedly asking for the same thing and having long messages. They stated I was controlling.

If I do not consent and a judge orders it does that mean I lose costs?
How do I know when the OCL or section 30 will be ordered?