What happen's after an OCL report is disputed?

[iona6656]

My ex has or is filing notice of dispute the report in our matter. Rule 21 of the Family Law Rules only sets out the process and timelines by which the parties must file a notice of dispute.

The case law I've reviewed- in a nutshell- say that OCL recommendations should not be used on an interim basis- that they should be implemented only after a trial.

There is also a Pazaratz decision that discusses a disputed report here: https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...ocompletePos=1

Looks like they tested both reports at trial.

BUT - what's the actual process that the OCL uses? Does anyone know? Do they go back and review the report and make a decision on whether they will amend it? or reconsider? I cannot find anything on their website as to the process. I've called and left a message with an OCL supervisor.

I guess my question is- once a notice of dispute to an OCL report is filed- does it 100% mean we're going to trial?

[iona6656]

also- just to be totally clear.

I. DO. NOT. WANT. TO. GO. TO. TRIAL.


but I'm feeling like I have no option. As I said before- I'm not planning to take the report and run. I've told my ex this in co-parent counselling- so that he'll try to be reasonable and come to the table on some compromise. But maybe that's where I effed up? I should just take the report and go?

[StillPaying]

Once an application is made, you're going to trial regardless. Nothing has changed with the report. It'll just be another witness called and evidence argued at trial.

As your ex brought the application, you really have no control over trial unless you both can come to an agreement. You say you don't want trial, and I agree with you, but your offer made court the only option for ex. Hopefully he doesn't sell himself short in his counter offer next week, as I truly believe he'll get 50/50 at court.

[iona6656]

Hopefully he doesn't sell himself short in his counter offer next week, as I truly believe he'll get 50/50 at court.

okay- I'm going to bite. what makes you think he'll get 50/50 at court? I'm not trying to argue a position here- I'm trying to see how it could end up with him getting 50/50 now?

Here's where we stand.

child is 2.5 years old.

There is a history of domestic violence- including verbal abuse physical violence admitted through the report- and admitted in co-parent counselling. Which- yes,we both agreed to have the counselling be closed- but that privilege can be waived and the counselors notes subpoenaed if necessary.

At least twice- applicant dad has used child in violence as a means of threat against respondent mom. One of those times included a threat to kill the child, and included an assault on mother. As a result he was charged. Plead guilty in order to enter the early intervention program. Father completed PARs and said he would complete at minimum 10 sessions of individual counselling. He completed 8. When the investigator spoke to Father's therapist, therapist said she can remember him saying he was remorseful about the threat to his wife and it was impulsive. When she was asked about his threat to his daughter, therapist reported she didn't know about this, she didn't remember him sharing this with her. Therapist said in light of this information, she suggests dad continue with therapy to address this aspect of
his therapy.

Report basically said her impression was that dad minimized the violence- and doesn't have a plan on how to handle his anger in the future, and that toddlers can be challenging. And that there are too many high risk indicators to remove supervision at this time. Mom should continue to have primary residence as she has been primary care giver. Child is thriving- and enjoys good relationship with both parents.

Now- the non-violence stuff.

2.5 year old has only ever been cared for by mom or grandmother.

OCL report finds dad has a more relaxed approach to caring for allergies. child's allergist said allergies are really bad- laissez faire approach is not recommended. Allergist thinks OIT (therapy for allergy treatment) is good for child.

child's doctor and dermatologist told investigator that child's atopic dermatitis is really bad, needs constant supervision and control...but is currently managed well.


Kid is thriving.


Mom's position- let sole custody stand (for now), work with co-parent counsellor and have dad work on his own therapy to manage anger- once his therapist says "he's good" (therapist to tell lawyers- not mom)- remove supervision. Keep increasing access every couple of months- including overnights.

If everything goes well - reassess custody and access, without material change, when child is 7. I'd be okay with 4 or 5 even. But 7 is what my lawyer recommended.

^ that's my legal position. In reality- if dad really owned his shit- just said once "Yeah, you know- that was really really bad. I know I lost it- I would never hurt D2. And I'll keep working on it- I'll start AA, and keep working with my therapist"- why the hell wouldn't I want our daughter to have the benefit of both parents in her life 50/50? And no, I don't want child support- nor do I care about set-off CS- I'd be paying him like $200/mth. I don't care about that. I'll pay $200 NOW if he'd just own his shit and get some help.

I just honestly can't just accept 50/50 at this stage because, while I know he's okay 99.5% of the time, that 0.05%- when he's frustrated- all bets are off. If he's had too much to drink- or too much to smoke (weed does NOT chill him out)- he's totally unpredictable. He breaks shit- he threatens violence. He's not only done it to me- he's done it to his sister too. I am not okay with our daughter being in that situation. So why is EOW okay then? Because it's not that hard to take care of a high needs toddler for a short amount of time- it's not THAT stressful. But to do it on an ongoing basis- it IS stressful. And unless I know he can handle that stress without losing his shit on her- I am not okay with her being with him 50/50.

Dad's position- joint custody with 50/50 shared custody. He wants child to have two homes - understandable. Feels he's addressed his anger issues- and trigger is removed now and is less stressed so he doesn't smoke weed anymore. Doesn't feel AA is necessary. Will attend further counselling if OCL report recommends it. (it does).

What am I missing here?

[Mom 2 Two]

Your not missing anything... I agree with you. He will not get 50/50...

As for disputed report from OCL. I asked my clinician this after my final phone call this last Saturday.

She said lots of people dispute. As long as the recommendations are backed by facts from your collaterals... and the child’s safety and best interests are also backed up by facts a disputed report means nothing. She told me to hold this report. And that in the future you can use it showing that your ex didn’t do any of the recommendations. If of course he didn’t follow them. She believed for sure I will be back in court in two years as she can already tell that if my ex doesn’t do something now to repair his relationship with his kids that our kids will eventually refuse to go. She is basing this off of what the kids tell her about how dad parents and treats them while in his care.

DV is real and I think you still fear your ex... your child is young... do not give in to 50/50. Someone already thought he needed supervised visitations. That speaks volumes to me.


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[Janus]

What am I missing here?

Nothing. You have positions grounded with evidence. Based upon what you have said here, I think stillpaying is incorrect.


As to your original question, which process are you referring to? Dealing with a disputed report? Why would they have a process, would that not be handled by the courts?


The previous paragraph is a long way of saying: "I dunno"

[StillPaying]

okay- I'm going to bite. what makes you think he'll get 50/50 at court? I'm not trying to argue a position here- I'm trying to see how it could end up with him getting 50/50 now?

50/50 would be gradual over a short period, much shorter than 5 years.

Here's where we stand.

child is 2.5 years old.

There is a history of domestic violence- including verbal abuse physical violence admitted through the report- and admitted in co-parent counselling. Which- yes,we both agreed to have the counselling be closed- but that privilege can be waived and the counselors notes subpoenaed if necessary.

At least twice- applicant dad has used child in violence as a means of threat against respondent mom. One of those times included a threat to kill the child, and included an assault on mother. As a result he was charged. Plead guilty in order to enter the early intervention program. Father completed PARs and said he would complete at minimum 10 sessions of individual counselling. He completed 8. When the investigator spoke to Father's therapist, therapist said she can remember him saying he was remorseful about the threat to his wife and it was impulsive. When she was asked about his threat to his daughter, therapist reported she didn't know about this, she didn't remember him sharing this with her. Therapist said in light of this information, she suggests dad continue with therapy to address this aspect of
his therapy.

Report basically said her impression was that dad minimized the violence- and doesn't have a plan on how to handle his anger in the future, and that toddlers can be challenging. And that there are too many high risk indicators to remove supervision at this time. Mom should continue to have primary residence as she has been primary care giver. Child is thriving- and enjoys good relationship with both parents.

All of that is what you emotionally feel. The court would see it as you two are no longer together, problem solved. You say ex admitted to it and did all his punishment and counseling, but you feel it's not enough. I really don't think the judge would see it like that. Ex was bad, fixed it, and has been fighting for his child ever since. Child deserves both parents.

Now- the non-violence stuff.

2.5 year old has only ever been cared for by mom or grandmother.

Dad will easily argue this.

OCL report finds dad has a more relaxed approach to caring for allergies. child's allergist said allergies are really bad- laissez faire approach is not recommended. Allergist thinks OIT (therapy for allergy treatment) is good for child.

child's doctor and dermatologist told investigator that child's atopic dermatitis is really bad, needs constant supervision and control...but is currently managed well.


Kid is thriving.

Your ex can give medication when needed. The fact that you feel he can't is irrelevant.

Mom's position- let sole custody stand (for now), work with co-parent counsellor and have dad work on his own therapy to manage anger- once his therapist says "he's good" (therapist to tell lawyers- not mom)- remove supervision. Keep increasing access every couple of months- including overnights.

If everything goes well - reassess custody and access, without material change, when child is 7. I'd be okay with 4 or 5 even. But 7 is what my lawyer recommended.

You'll see a lot of orders go from eow to 50/50 once child starts school full time. You want to wait an extra 3 years so you can establish more status quo. This wouldn't work.

^ that's my legal position. In reality- if dad really owned his shit- just said once "Yeah, you know- that was really really bad. I know I lost it- I would never hurt D2. And I'll keep working on it- I'll start AA, and keep working with my therapist"- why the hell wouldn't I want our daughter to have the benefit of both parents in her life 50/50? And no, I don't want child support- nor do I care about set-off CS- I'd be paying him like $200/mth. I don't care about that. I'll pay $200 NOW if he'd just own his shit and get some help.

You already went after cs, so you do want it. However you also know that it'd be you paying offset.

I just honestly can't just accept 50/50 at this stage because, while I know he's okay 99.5% of the time, that 0.05%- when he's frustrated- all bets are off. If he's had too much to drink- or too much to smoke (weed does NOT chill him out)- he's totally unpredictable. He breaks shit- he threatens violence. He's not only done it to me- he's done it to his sister too. I am not okay with our daughter being in that situation. So why is EOW okay then? Because it's not that hard to take care of a high needs toddler for a short amount of time- it's not THAT stressful. But to do it on an ongoing basis- it IS stressful. And unless I know he can handle that stress without losing his shit on her- I am not okay with her being with him 50/50.

With that logic, a 223 schedule would work and a judge would agree with you.

Dad's position- joint custody with 50/50 shared custody. He wants child to have two homes - understandable. Feels he's addressed his anger issues- and trigger is removed now and is less stressed so he doesn't smoke weed anymore. Doesn't feel AA is necessary. Will attend further counselling if OCL report recommends it. (it does).

Sounds reasonable to me. It'll be a progression, not right away, but that's what he'll most likely get.

What am I missing here?

Everything. Your case is very typical, and you are filled with emotions on how you think things should go.

[iona6656]

^stillpaying- your logic is everything I'm afraid of happening in court. It just takes one judge to see things the way you see it. Which is why I'll keep sending offers and trying to settle this. I disagree with your broad strokes statements on a lot of things in your response.

The way I see it- what will happen will be based on the best evidence we both can present in court. And credibility. Courts love credibility. Luckily- to date, I've overestimated my ex's ability to hide his batshit control issues in front of others. He couldn't hide it from the CAS, the first jointly agreed on mediator, our current co-parent therapist, and the OCL.

As to your original question, which process are you referring to? Dealing with a disputed report? Why would they have a process, would that not be handled by the courts?

Yeah- dealing with a disputed report. I wanted to know if there was a legislated or prescribed process by which they re-evaluate the report. i.e. they will review dispute and provide written response within 30 days, etc etc.

I got my answer. I called the OCL and spoke with a supervisor. Once they receive a notice of dispute- they will look at it to see if there are factual errors, or if there are clarifications necessary. There is no formal process for this review. There is nothing the other party is asked to submit. They will provide a response and copy both parties.

[iona6656]

Your not missing anything... I agree with you. He will not get 50/50...

As for disputed report from OCL. I asked my clinician this after my final phone call this last Saturday.

She said lots of people dispute. As long as the recommendations are backed by facts from your collaterals... and the child’s safety and best interests are also backed up by facts a disputed report means nothing. She told me to hold this report. And that in the future you can use it showing that your ex didn’t do any of the recommendations. If of course he didn’t follow them. She believed for sure I will be back in court in two years as she can already tell that if my ex doesn’t do something now to repair his relationship with his kids that our kids will eventually refuse to go. She is basing this off of what the kids tell her about how dad parents and treats them while in his care.

DV is real and I think you still fear your ex... your child is young... do not give in to 50/50. Someone already thought he needed supervised visitations. That speaks volumes to me.


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Thanks for the information.

I do still fear my ex- mostly for our daughter. But being honest (yay anonymity) - I am still afraid for myself as well. I still look around every time I go to my car. I screen my calls. I installed a video doorbell at my parent's place. It's weird because if I'm in a public setting or people are there- I will go toe-to-toe with my ex now. I set boundaries in co-parent counselling. But I still am nervous- and feel off in his presence. It's frustrating because I suspect he knows it.

I will not give in or agree to 50/50- not now. However, I will agree to use it as an end goal.

[StillPaying]

I will not give in or agree to 50/50- not now. However, I will agree to use it as an end goal.

This is why your ex needs court, and why ex's in general don't control each other's homes. You're all over the place. You are ok with 50/50, but only when he has satisfied your feelings. However, he has already satisfied police, court, counselor, supervised center etc; just not quite enough for you yet. He may not cook properly, he may not put cream on, he may not..... What you feel won't matter. IMO, the courts will be satisfied long before you.

[tilt]

I don’t think he will get 50/50, it depends on the judge of course, but the movement towards recognizing that exposure to domestic violence is not in the best interest of the children is only strengthening in Canada. The only thing working against you is time - push for trial ASAP while everything is still fresh. And stand up for yourself and your child - I would back away from the 50/50 as a final goal for now.

[gettingexpensive]

I must have missed it from the previous posts but what documentation do you have in your case? Police reports? Is he being charged criminally? Does this even change anything?

I don't see hwy he should get 50/50 custody from the start, I don't see that as being in the kids best interest. Then again, you say that the issues are "only" 0.5% of the time... so maybe 50-50 could be seen as acceptable.

[iona6656]

I must have missed it from the previous posts but what documentation do you have in your case? Police reports? Is he being charged criminally? Does this even change anything?

Yep- the information is on the first page. Yes to charges- and yes it did change- a lot of things because he wasn't only charged with assault and threats against me- he was charged with threats against our daughter. But they have been resolved- he plead guilty, entered early intervention and received an absolute discharge. Which is not a withdrawal- it's an actual conviction. However, it does get expunged from his record after a year.

I don't see hwy he should get 50/50 custody from the start, I don't see that as being in the kids best interest. Then again, you say that the issues are "only" 0.5% of the time... so maybe 50-50 could be seen as acceptable.

It's not really "only"- I was using that as an example really. It's that there is a possibility that he could lose his shit with our daughter - aimed at her, or maybe at someone else. It's an uphill battle to get others (courts, police, therapists, OCL, etc) to believe that. But some people do now (police, therapists and OCL- not the courts, yet).

I don’t think he will get 50/50, it depends on the judge of course, but the movement towards recognizing that exposure to domestic violence is not in the best interest of the children is only strengthening in Canada. The only thing working against you is time - push for trial ASAP while everything is still fresh. And stand up for yourself and your child - I would back away from the 50/50 as a final goal for now.

I see what you're saying about using 50/50 as a final goal. I think what I'm trying to convey, and admittedly may be doing a bad job of doing it, is that I'm trying to go into this being reasonable about his parenting time with our daughter, and how that can continue to increase.

The way I see it is this- he's either going to get better- e.g actually internalize what he's been hearing from others ("hey- you may have some anger and control issues you need to deal with") and actually change. I'm not going to speculate on if that's going to happen.

Or he's not.

I'm open to looking at custody and access and parenting time as our daughter gets older and her needs change.

Now? I don't think it's a good idea for her to have equal parenting time- based on his actions and her needs.

Later? I'm okay with keeping open the possibility for things to change at a later date. How do we determine that? I think the help of a parenting coordinator/therapist would help. But we're her parents- I'm confident we'll be able to figure that out partially. I hope.

[gettingexpensive]

It's not really "only"- I was using that as an example really. It's that there is a possibility that he could lose his shit with our daughter - aimed at her, or maybe at someone else. It's an uphill battle to get others (courts, police, therapists, OCL, etc) to believe that. But some people do now (police, therapists and OCL- not the courts, yet).

That's tough. I'm going through something similar so I fully understand. The ex has basically two modes: good mom and "victim mom" she believes that she isn't worthy and we don't know where it leads but there were assaults, suicide threats in front of the kids, death threats, harassment, bloody knuckles, violence at the hospital, .. Cops are concerned, my house is flagged in the system and I had the same cops show up and he really remembered the past events. They wanted to send their team with the psychologist before she assaulted me (after threats). The detective was seriously concerned by the intensity of the threats and assault. Yet CAS says visits are totally safe... because my oldest one can call for help. Kids get a bit lost because mom goes through cycles and it's hard on them.

I want the kids to see their mom, when she's in good shape but am not ready for 50-50. I need to retain some control. I feel an uphill battle as well...

[StillPaying]

Based on what was said, I think most evidence supports ex's position:

- always loved, cared for, been present and have great relationship with child
- said something horrible 2 years ago and have taken ownership of it
- brought application and fought for child right away, nonstop
- completed anger management, PAS, therapy, co-parenting counseling, cas, ocl, etc
- cas open and closed the file with me seeing child twice weekly
- supervised center had no concerns
- supervision continued with family with no issues, time increased
- supervision is supposed to be short term, but mom won't agree
- police and criminal court say I have done everything I was supposed to with no concerns, absolute discharge
- ocl saw and said child and I have great relationship and that ex and I communicate well, ofw
- however, ocl and mom feel that I'm sorry for what I said, but not sorry enough...
- I've done everything ex requested of me, even going to counseling together with her
- there have been no issues since separation, never an issue between father and child, tried settling out of court, but ex refuses to let me be an active presence in our child's life, with zero unsupervised access or even an overnight access in all this time.
- the rules, acts, guidelines, case law, all support our child having both loving parents equally, but I can't get past ex's feelings so court is required


IMO, it would be gradual but there is no reason ex shouldn't have joint 50/50. The only way he'll get less is if he agrees to it.