Relocating to Canada to Have More Time with Children

[kate331]

Not now, but it is possible in the future. How would it affect the legal ramifications of the situation today?

I don't believe it has any legal consequences a Judge's only concern is the children before him in a legal dispute. Lots of people move on and start a second family. Emotionally your children may have a hard time accepting it though, especially if they are already some emotional issues. There could some jealousy that this new child gets all your time and attention.

A new child will be a sibling, do you plan on flying in every month with a baby to bond with their siblings if you dont get shared custody of the older ones, or raise them completely separately on 2 different continents?

[rockscan]

Remember too that kids say what people want to hear and kids also start acting out around 10-12. It could be that she doesn’t like the rules at home and is acting out. There are a a-lot of kids of divorce who play one parent off the other to get what they want. You may also want to speak to your ex about helping her with the issues. She will probably say no but it goes a long way to a judge that you want to work with her. Having a situation where there are no rules at dads house so kids can be free to come and go isn’t a solution to bad behaviour.

[arabian]

I would suggest that you have your lawyer request regular Skype time. This is a pretty standard request for parents who live long distances apart.

You indicate that you do have some vacation time with your children but this time is at grandparents place. Why not plan a summer vacation where you do an activity such as camping? See how receptive your children are to being responsible for some chores and participate in simple things such as cooking. Alternately, you could find another activity such as a horseback trip into the mountains for a week or a canoeing trip. This might be a bit of a reality check for everyone that room service is perhaps not in the future?

[Istanbul]

A judge is not going to take a child who is running away, and has anger problems and order the child to live in a hotel for a week at a time once every month. That is not a stable envirnment. Can she bring her toys to the hotel and put a poster up on the wall of her bedroom and have a private sleeping area, and decorate the bedroom so it feels homey, at a hotel? Now if you already had an apartment, a stable residence, a home, then that would be different and you might possibly have an argument for increased access.

Perhaps you are right, and it’s possible that a Canadian judge would think more like you than like me. But for what it’s worth, I would note the following. My daughter’s life is stable now, yet things are not going so well. She says she is misbehaving at home because she is not happy that her mother is blocking my time with children. So it’s not a huge leap of faith to assume that a decent solution would be if she had more time with me, rather than the solution being to make her life more stable than it is. In my opinion the issue is more about how often I see the children, rather than where I see the children. In addition, none of this is a precise science. What works for one child might not work for another. Some children don’t even live in the same city for more than 6 months at a time and can have a happy life nonetheless and see the world and learn a lot more than if they stay put for the first 18 years of their life.

In addition, it’s not like a judge would be making a call that locks things up for years to come. What is the downside of giving me one week per month with children for 6 months, and if it’s not working well then no need to renew the experiment. Or the judge can tell me no, and ensure that status quo continues, and status quo ain’t going very well at the moment.

[kate331]

But you are correct that I am running into the wall of what society expects. Canada's society I would point out. Opinions are very different elsewhere, but that is part of why I want to seek feedback from people on this forum because after all, the case will be in Canada's court, not elsewhere. I am at odds with several aspects of how things work in Canada. I can put my concerns aside to some extent, but as I stated before, I am not 100% perfect dad and I do not pretend to be 100% perfect dad. If the system and society put too many hurdles in front of certain people, then the system and society will have to accept that some people might not behave in the way that you would have wanted them to behave, and that the end result could be sub-optimal, for the children included.

I am far from the perfect parent either. You brought up an interesting point, I do feel our culture plays a role. I am a Canadian girl, from Irish decent, my ex is Greek. His views on "hands on Dad" differ from mine. His view is Mom's take care of the little ones, then Dad steps in when they reach an older age. He was dumbfounded when I asked for 50/50 custody. What kind of Mother doesn't want her young ones with her 24/7, that's her role. His parents where shocked as well, how will their son manage with 2 kids on his own? Who will cook for the children, clean, do their laundry, Yaya lost many sleepless nights over this

[kate331]

Is your family in Ontario? If Police where involved its a mandatory report to CAS. I believe you have the right to contact the school and get the information yourself. You can also contact CAS yourself, and ask about the file.

[Istanbul]

I really appreciate your honesty! And my heart goes out to your daughter who is struggling. Has Child Protection opened a file? Because thats a whole other can of worms.

Thank you kate. I do not know if Child Protection is involved. I have not been able to get the police report and I am unable to get doctor reports about children because my ex is blocking information. Which is another thing I need to ask court to allow, which will give us a clearer picture of what is going on. But I do know that a social worker is involved in school.

[Istanbul]

You have intention of remarrying but will not commit to moving to Canada unless it benefits your new wife and will ensure you have increased access to your children. You feel that obtaining more access and then purchasing/renting a home in Canada will benefit your new spouse's ability to come to Canada so you're ok with that (and it would not be hard for a judge to surmise that this is the true reason for your application).

There are two separate issues here.
1. The divorce being granted before trial
2. Having more access with children

#1 is what will make it easier for my new wife to have a travel or residence visa in Canada because it then allows legal remarriage. #2 is unrelated.

Generally speaking, my new wife is not particularly for or against moving to Canada and we would not move to Canada if I did not have children in Canada. It is backwards to state that I am asking for #2 to allow my new wife to come to Canada. It is rather that if I get #2 then she will accept to come to Canada.

But if we get #1, then she *could* get a residence visa and elect to move to Canada if she wanted to, regardless of any decision on #2.

Hopefully this makes sense or I am clear as mud?

[kate331]

I really appreciate your honesty! And my heart goes out to your daughter who is struggling. Has Child Protection opened a file? Because thats a whole other can of worms.

[Istanbul]

Is the new girlfriend/fiancée pregnant?

Not now, but it is possible in the future. How would it affect the legal ramifications of the situation today?

[Istanbul]

So to us it looks like you made choices that are now returning to haunt you, but not accepting responsibility for them; instead blaming it all on your ex's actions.

You chose not to have independent legal advice (unless I'm mixing you up with another poster), you chose to believe your ex would be reasonable, you chose to continue on the career path you had set during the marriage instead of being flexible with the end of the marriage, you chose to set a status quo of your ex having the children, and you chose to become involved in a new relationship before the previous one was legally closed off.

So now you are faced with the situation that you are trying to rectify this series of mistakes, which is an uphill battle.

If you haven't moved to Canada before you hit court, there is no material change in circumstances, and your ex will very likely successfully argue that there is no guarantee you will do so, so nothing should be changed. Do things in the right order and you are far more likely to succeed.

Tell the judge you made these mistakes, but now want to do right by your children and be a more involved father. Don't badmouth your ex or whine about how she's manipulated things and just wants more money. Focus on how your move to Canada (which should be in the PAST by that point) has benefited the children.

Unfortunately, he's running into the wall of being expected by most of society, especially the legal part of it, to have a normal CS calculation, and to remain fully employed as long as he has dependents, despite any plans to the contrary while the marriage was solid.

You raise several good points and bring logical recommendations. I only quoted a few of them above.

If I sound like I am blaming everything on my ex, then I will be careful with my tone in court. For certain things I cannot avoid the finger pointing because actually I need to bring up what I think is wrong (cut off communication with children for example) in order to get it fixed. Also regarding the financial issues discussed in the other thread, I need to prove the numerous ways how she lied under oath, in order to undermine her credibility and have her claims (or some of them) dismissed. But for a lot of the other stuff, indeed I can accept responsibility. For example, I did not move to Canada immediately when we separated. Why? Because it was the deal. We had a separation agreement where both parties made concessions, and one of them was that she asked me to stay employed with high income in my previous country for a little longer, in order to guarantee years of future CS. Sure I could have refused and the dispute would have been in court back then. But I accepted to buy peace which I thought would benefit the children rather than years of court battles. Perhaps wrong choice, but I made that choice and I accept it. And yes I did not have a lawyer back then, you are not mixing up different posters. Now I have a lawyer.

Hopefully the residence situation can be done in steps, for example:
1. I give assurance to court that I will find reasonable accommodation for children if I get one week per month.
2. Court gives me one week per month.
3. I rent a furnished apartment on a temporary basis and host children there.
4. By the time we go to trial, if all goes well by then I request joint custody.
5. I am granted joint custody.
6. I buy a permanent residence.

If #6 needs to come first, that will be a problem.

Regarding my employment, that is a separate issue from custody which was partially discussed in the financial thread, but since you bring it up, I pay CS based on an imputed income far higher than what I can make in Canada, so I do not see what it would achieve if I was working other than enrich myself, which I don't want to. There would not be more money paid in CS since my actual income would remain below my imputed income per the terms of the separation agreement, so all that income would go only in my pocket. That makes it an entirely personal decision if I work or not, in my opinion. But you are correct that I am running into the wall of what society expects. Canada's society I would point out. Opinions are very different elsewhere, but that is part of why I want to seek feedback from people on this forum because after all, the case will be in Canada's court, not elsewhere. I am at odds with several aspects of how things work in Canada. I can put my concerns aside to some extent, but as I stated before, I am not 100% perfect dad and I do not pretend to be 100% perfect dad. If the system and society put too many hurdles in front of certain people, then the system and society will have to accept that some people might not behave in the way that you would have wanted them to behave, and that the end result could be sub-optimal, for the children included.

[denbigh]

But given those problems, is it not an attractive solution to a judge to give more time to the father?

No it is not, especially becasue of those problems. A judge is not going to take a child who is running away, and has anger problems and order the child to live in a hotel for a week at a time once every month. That is not a stable envirnment. Can she bring her toys to the hotel and put a poster up on the wall of her bedroom and have a private sleeping area, and decorate the bedroom so it feels homey, at a hotel? Now if you already had an apartment, a stable residence, a home, then that would be different and you might possibly have an argument for increased access.

[Istanbul]

As you live away from your children, and you stated that when were married, your ex did the parenting and you did not, I suspect you have no idea the all consuming task parenting is. do you know what it is like to wake up and feed your child every 2 hours for weeks on end, until you finally get 3 hours of sleep in a row? Live a sleep deprived life for years through succesive babies and pregnancies? Have a child vomit all over your face? Not be able to pee alone as your toddlers bangs onteh door trying to get your attention? And that is the early years. Tehn you stay up late making a diaorama your child forgot was due, trying to scrounge items around the house, make insesant lunches, talk to teachers and coaches, arrange your life around your childs activity schedule, get your kid to do the dishes and stop fighting with your sister, juggle the entire household schedule for everyone, return the late library book, find last minute birth presents for kids frineds, listen to your 13 year old throw a temper tantrum at 8 AM because a favorite shirt is dirty and LIFE IS JUST SO UNFAIR, I HAVE TO WEAR THAT SHIRT. and somewhere in theri you must also work, pay your bills, and ensure your children gorw up with good values, and become productive members of society. Your children very well may prefer holiday dad to chore mom. Some day your children will realize who actually raised them.

My ex was a stay at home mom, and I was working like a dog. But that does not mean I did nothing at all for the children, at any time, for several years. So yes I am aware of all the tasks that you describe. I can sympathize with all parents (usually the mother) who had to handle this by themselves, with no help, because their ex husband was not willing to help. However in my situation, given that my ex is refusing my increased involvement and she even wants to decrease it, then sorry but it’s hard for me to have sympathy for the problems she is having at home because they are self-inflicted.

You are correct that children will realize some day who raised them. But some day my children will realize (actually they already do) who is preventing access to their dad, against their wishes. Not even a simple phone call is possible. And that their father offered to share the parental responsibility of raising them, but that their mother did not want it.

[Istanbul]

The way I see it, both parents make choices. It's sad and painful when the custodial parent (usually the mother) alienates the kids and shockingly does her best to undermine the father and his role. The mother chooses to make access difficult, create false status quo, create conflict to show breakdown of communication, allegations of abuse, etc.

The father may choose to evaluate the overall situation and determine the best course of action which may not align entirely with the way a judge sees to be in the best interests of the child.

The difference is while the mother usually gets away with such behaviour, the father is penalized almost from the onslaught as being perceived as an absent, uninterested and selfish father.

On the contrary, the father has to spend thousands of dollars in proving that mother is being uncooperative, creates false status quo, etc. Moreover, if he settles for a job which enables him more access/parenting but may not be up to his potential qualifications, he may be seen as being underemployed (more legal fees to defend against this).

Personally, I have already made one emotionally driven decision when I reconciled with the mother after 11 months of separation to be with my 1 year old daughter as a full-time parent. Other than being full-time with my daughter, that decision was not in my best interest in terms of financial and safety (allegations of abuse) considerations.

When I chose to reconcile, the mother miraculously realized/admitted that I was a good parent and she was sorry she kept our daughter away from me. She also voluntarily agreed to fix our daughter's birth certificate by amending her family name and adding me as the father.

Imagine having to spend thousands in legal fees just to fix this minor thing that shouldn't have been there in the first place. It was plain out fraud/misrepresentation but the mother was never penalized.

Well, our reconciliation period lasted 5 months. When I decided to end our marital relationship, that greatly angered the mother and she had me charged with two counts of assault.

Presently, I'm also working outside Canada (got this job post separation) and have chosen to limit international travel until the criminal charges have been dispositioned. This resulted in me not seeing my daughter for almost one year. The trial date is coming up in a couple of months.

Lo and behold, after separation, I am again a bad father.

The cycle repeats where we, as parents, have to give up our powers and ask strangers i.e. judges to make decisions re our lives and our daughter's life. All this because mother hates me and does everything in her power to keep me away and I choose to move forward taking into account my own needs/safety as well.

Wow, I am very sorry to hear. Your situation is worse than mine given that you have no access at all for the moment.

I fully understand why you have taken several things into consideration, including your child, but it is not the only consideration.

[Istanbul]

Thanks all for the feedback, I appreciate it. There is a lot to respond, I will start with my initial thoughts below.

@rockscan:

There are plenty of dads on here who were actually thrown out of their kids lives and who fought tooth and nail for them. Look at PlainNamedDad who moved back and now has all his kids with him and is fighting his ex, LF32 who had his ex kidnap his daughter and he fought for several years to get 50:50, Links who argued his way through the courts, WorkingDad who set precedents for self rep

I realize that some are “perfect dads” who were willing to drop everything for their children. Kudos to them and I admire their dedication. Unfortunately, that person is not me. At one extreme, there are the perfect dads, and at the other extreme there are those who abandoned their children and don’t care one iota. And there are those who are in between, me included.

@arabian

judges do not make ruling on "maybes"

Yes I understand. In that same line of thought, I am willing to relocate to Canada because my children need me but right now I am being asked to drop my fiancée and drop everything else in my life only for * maybe * having more time with children in the future. Perhaps I also do not want to make big decisions based on maybes too.

So far, I have requested more time with children but everything has been denied. I cannot even take one child to the hotel with me on a week night. And the issue is not only about whether it’s suitable to host children during the week on the grounds that I do not have a residence. I could also not get the children for half the summer despite the fact that I can host them in my parents’ home. What exactly is the problem with me having children for half the summer? My ex has also blocked communication between children and I between my visits. So the issue is about blocking my access generally speaking, rather than only about hotels and stability. In addition, my ex is seeking in court to have my visitation rights reduced to one weekend per month. So in light of all of the above, and also some other considerations I have not even brought up yet, so far I have decided that no I will not drop everything in my life to get a residence in Canada and hope to get more time granted by court.

@arabian

Meanwhile your children - are they failing academically? Has child welfare been involved to date? Any other reasons you can substantiate to show need to change the status quo?

@kate331

You say the conditions with Mom and children are grave. What actually do you mean by that? Do any of the children have special needs or mental health issues?

To elaborate further or what are the problems with the children at home, I would say they are mostly, but not all, with one child. Issues range from running away from home, violence and/or threats of violence at home, school suspension, etc. My ex-wife called police to report threats from my daughter. We are not talking about a strong 15-year old male teenager here. We’re talking about a shorter and smaller than average 10-year old girl. Yes child welfare is involved, via school.

If the situation was fine and dandy at home, I do not think my odds of getting more time with children would be all that great and I would possibly not stir the pot with requests in court. But given those problems, is it not an attractive solution to a judge to give more time to the father? I am not asking for 50/50 or joint custody right away. Give me one week per month, then we can increase from there if it works well.

Another way to say it, do I need to be perfect dad willing to drop everything for his children in order to get more time? Or is the bar lower than that? What if I am only 70-80% perfect? Is that not enough? A judge will be looking at the situation and see a dad willing to move to Canada, but someone who has been reluctant to make that commitment so far for various reasons, including the fact that the father is giving weight to several considerations in his life, rather than only considering the children. The judge would prefer that the father has proven that commitment already, but unfortunately he has not yet. On the other hand, a judge sees that there are several issues going on, that children want to see their father more, that the mother is doing a lot to restrict access, and that the mother is spread thin. Chances are that the children’s well-being would improve if the father was around, and that exactly where they live (luxury house, hotel, or trailer park) is a lesser issue than the simple fact of having time with the father. Given my tempered commitment and the problems at home, the question is in the balance of things, what will a judge decide.

I also question whether me having a home close to the children in the last year or so would have made things better or worse. If a child is already running away from the house despite having nowhere to go, will it make things better or worse if I am in the neighborhood? I think the frequency of those episodes would certainly increase because she would know she can come to me. And it would certainly increase tension, friction, and conflict because then I would have my ex on my doorstep ordering for our daughter to go back to her. So is it not better to first get clarity from court that I can indeed get more time, then I get a residence in Canada? Rather than the other way around. If I fail by going through regular channels (court) then perhaps I can revaluate the situation and consider whether getting a residence there and get things done via “force” would be an appropriate solution. There will come an age where court or police would not be able to forcibly remove my daughter from my house if she does not want to go to her mother’s house. But one thing at a time, this is far down the road.