Relocating to Canada to Have More Time with Children

[Istanbul]

Yes good points.

I think there are several land mines... if it's not this, then there is something else I might say that won't put me in the best possible light. I am not sure it's avoidable for someone who has never been to court and who does not have experience with the process, except to try to be as best prepared as possible!

[momof2teenboys]

Or "stakeholders"

[arabian]

... do not use the word "inconvenient" when speaking to the judge.

[Istanbul]

I still feel your making a huge mistake by not being present for your motion. The stakes are just too high to leave your lawyer in charge. Especially when it comes to the custody/access imo your sending a message to the Judge that your priorities are not in the right place.

Yes I know what you mean. It's somewhat in line with my previous comments where I wonder if doing 70-80% to help the children is good enough, and whether it is realistic for a judge to expect me to do 100% instead and drop everything else in my life. I am trying to juggle several issues at the same time and trying to reach the best compromise that I can for several stakeholders.

So I won't be in court in Canada in person, but I will be on speaker phone during the motion. My lawyer won't be 100% in charge since I will be in touch with him during the motion electronically if we need to exchange information in private. And if the judge asks me during the motion why I am not there in person then I have a reasonable explanation for why it would have been very inconvenient to undo my plans to attend in person at the date my lawyer got for the motion. For sure, the downside is that it sends the message that I am not doing everything to be there, but at the same time I have decent reasons and I am still "there" on the phone.

I hope that the judge will be sympathetic to my situation rather than come down hard on me for not giving all priority to be there in person.

I will keep everybody posted on what happens next month!

[kate331]

If you do ask and get a position letter from CAS, doesnt mean you have to use it. If your ex has one you will surely see it in the disclosure anyway.

I still feel your making a huge mistake by not being present for your motion. The stakes are just too high to leave your lawyer in charge. Especially when it comes to the custody/access imo your sending a message to the Judge that your priorities are not in the right place.

[Istanbul]

Finally, most people who are in high-income bracket settle out-of-court. You probably know this already. Cost of litigation in a protracted custody battle for someone in your situation would be steep.

That was exactly my opinion as well. Not only for cost considerations, but also for "peace" considerations with the children. And this is why as far as I am concerned, I already settled out of court a few years ago. However I would be reluctant to have to do this repeatedly every few years (speaking of the financial terms here, not children custody).

So yes I had the belief that out of court was better. Been there, done that. Unfortunately in some situations I see now that it might not always be the best option. I am still open to a settlement if something realistic is offered down the road, but I am also reluctant to set a precedent here. I know how my ex is: it's never enough and she always wants more. If I was to give in now (again speaking only about the financial part, retrospectively), am I only buying the peace for a couple of years until next round of requests? Would I be repeating my mistake of the past to agree to something just because she asked? How many times will we have to do this in the next several years? At some point it has to stop... The easiest I make it for her now, the more likely she is to come back in the future with another threat of a court fight. Rince and repeat. So that is also part of my dilemma about which stance I will decide to take now.

[Istanbul]

It looks like I am getting better advice here than from my lawyer. How much do I owe you? LOL

@kate331: my lawyer never mentioned anything about a position letter, so I have just made the request directly to CAS. However I suspect that my ex involved her lawyer with CAS which would trigger the complications that you described.

@arabian: thanks for the link to Canlii, this will be useful and relevant reading material and it will help set my expectations accordingly.

And thanks to all for the kind words as well. The way I see it, the advice I receive can fall into three categories:
1. Harsh but truthful and helpful advice. Tough love from a friend, if you will. In that case, I can only welcome such opinions and I would be a fool to reject it.
2. Incorrect advice, but incorrect only because I have not explained all the facts (yet) so you do not have all the information to give good advice. In that case, I simply have to provide additional information and see if the advice changes or not.
3. Incorrect advice plain and simple.

Even the best lawyer cannot provide only #1 and #2, in other words nobody has perfect wisdom so we all have #3 sometimes. That said, nobody is wrong all the time either so if someone provides a mix of #1, #2, and #3 then it is in my best interest to digest #1, explain for #2, and discard #3. The only way I don’t get help here is if someone reads the thread and decides not to respond. People who respond do so with good intentions, to help my children, or to help me, or both. So I have no reason to react negatively to any of what people say here when I know your intentions are good. There will probably be several more steps in my divorce case down the road and I will need your help and advice more than once in the future.

Unfortunately, unlike here, I have not always kept my calm with my ex. I find it more difficult to stay cordial when someone is lying under oath for financial gain, and making decisions that hurt children and go against the interest of children just to apply pressure in a divorce case. I have learned (partially) to shut my mouth even in such instances… Then again, nobody is perfect…

[Janus]

I wish you the very best and have to say that I like that you have canvassed people's input without getting defensive. This speaks to your maturity and self-control, as I know it probably hasn't been easy "getting the gears" from us on this forum.

I agree completely, a very impressive poster. People have said some harsh things to him and he hasn't struck back even once.

[kate331]

My ex was the enforcer too! When we were together, I was exasperated by the end of the day and my escape was to find an excuse to go to Shoppers Drugmart and walk up and down the isles in peace, so Dad would get them in bed with little difficulty. I found the transition to single parenting difficult.

Like you and your ex, neither of us were perfect parents. Yes, I did ask the courts for a 50/50 custody, but the ex asked for and got on our first CC, 2 weekends a month (Saturday to Sunday) until the motion when it changed.

Please dont make your ex out to be "Monster Mom" https://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/...ad.php?t=21661, the Judge as the forum member advised me, completely ignored it.

I agree with Arabian, you have been very eloquent on this forum, despite some of the harsher posters including myself; that will serve you well in Family Court.

[arabian]

I have had no personal experience with child custody or mobility issues.

I can give you case law of friends (of very good friends of mine) who are both professional people (with high incomes) who divorced and had to deal with mobility upon their separation. Both were stellar parents. It came down to status quo and children had spent most of the time with the mother. The cost of exercising access (even though it was within Canada) was not trivial. However, the father was given some consideration in his child support due to steep cost of access. He was heartbroken to not obtain sole custody of his children. But it comes down to one judge in the end. Mother was allowed to move across the country with the children - simply because she had spent more time with the children. Fair? Probably not. Judges don't like to 'rock the boat' so-to-speak and previous legal decisions prevent judges from deciding otherwise as judges do not make legal decisions that will have a good chance of being overturned in Appeals Court.

I wish you the very best and have to say that I like that you have canvassed people's input without getting defensive. This speaks to your maturity and self-control, as I know it probably hasn't been easy "getting the gears" from us on this forum.

Finally, most people who are in high-income bracket settle out-of-court. You probably know this already. Cost of litigation in a protracted custody battle for someone in your situation would be steep.

[kate331]

I called CAS and they said they did not receive a police report (at least, not yet) and that if I want the CAS file, I need to get a court order.

True about getting the file, but you can ask for a "position" letter from CAS you dont need a court order for that. Ask for it as a parent, if your lawyers asks for it, its gets complicated because then CAS has to bring in their lawyers. At least thats what I was told.

Has your lawyer not mentioned this? Thats the first thing my lawyer asked for when she found out there was a CAS file.

[Istanbul]

I don't believe it has any legal consequences a Judge's only concern is the children before him in a legal dispute. Lots of people move on and start a second family. Emotionally your children may have a hard time accepting it though, especially if they are already some emotional issues. There could some jealousy that this new child gets all your time and attention.

A new child will be a sibling, do you plan on flying in every month with a baby to bond with their siblings if you dont get shared custody of the older ones, or raise them completely separately on 2 different continents?

My children asked my fiancée if she wants children, she said yes, and I said I don't know, we will see in the future They got all excited and they want a new sibling. So it could turn out that they would have trouble accepting, but at the moment they are strongly in favor.

I have not given it much thought so far because there are too many unknowns, for example what will be the outcome in court, or whether I will even have a new child at all. But my gut reaction is that if I do not have shared custody in Canada, probably I would continue the monthly visits in Canada, some of them alone, and some of them with the baby. The frequency of when the baby travels to Canada would depend how good a traveller the baby is, which tends to vary based on age. Taking the plane with a 2-year old is far more difficult than with a 6-month old or a 4-year old, in my experience. Once that child goes to school, then the only time the new child would come to Canada would be during school holidays.

It's only a hypothetical discussion at this point, but I would also question why would a judge not consider the life situation of all parties involved on a holistic basis, rather than only think of the children of the divorce. Does a judge think I would relocate to Canada with my new wife and baby if I only get one or two weekends per month in Canada? I will not. That baby would have a family in Asia too, so if the situation is not very attractive to trigger a move to Canada, then that move simply won't happen. Does the argument in favor of shared custody in Canada not become stronger if there was a new baby in the picture? Does a judge think it is irrelevant whether my current children grow up separate from that baby or close to that baby? It seems it should be a factor to consider, but I am not a legal expert. Anyway I have a lot of other things to worry about for the moment

[Istanbul]

Remember too that kids say what people want to hear and kids also start acting out around 10-12. It could be that she doesnÂ’t like the rules at home and is acting out. There are a a-lot of kids of divorce who play one parent off the other to get what they want. You may also want to speak to your ex about helping her with the issues. She will probably say no but it goes a long way to a judge that you want to work with her. Having a situation where there are no rules at dads house so kids can be free to come and go isnÂ’t a solution to bad behaviour.

Interestingly, I think the issue is that there are not enough rules when they are at home, and/or that they are not being enforced. Before separation, I was usually the "enforcer" and my ex would call me at work and ask me to come back home to put order in the house because so and so was naughty and needed to be put to bed.

Post separation, children told me that in their opinion I am strict and that their mom is not. I asked them if it's better for a parent to be strict or not? And what about if it's better for a teacher to be strict or not? They said strict is better. So yeah maybe they tell me what I want to hear, but by acknowledging that strict is better, I got them on board to make rules. There aren't as many rules in a hotel room for a weekend, but during March break, Christmas / New Year, or the summer at my parents house, we made a list of rules which is on the fridge and they frequently refer to it. They actually enjoy improving themselves to follow the rules. Small steps I know, and not the daily grind of school life, but better than nothing.

Their bad behavior with their mother goes way back many years even before separation, it is just that now for a 10-12 year old it's worse plus there is only one parent around so alone is more difficult.

Based on everybody's advice here, I will be very careful not to present the behavior issue in court with the angle that I am great and my ex is bad. Because as you pointed out, at the moment I have the fun stuff now and she has the daily stuff. I will do my best to present it such that I offer a credible case that the situation will possibly not be worse if I have more time with children, and that there is a realistic chance that it might actually be better.

If I take the situation of someone like @kate331 as an example, despite the fact that she does not believe her ex is anywhere close to being a perfect dad, she thinks 50/50 is best for children anyway, and she asked for it. So does it not apply to my situation as well? Even if my commitment is not entirely convincing so far, if you were a judge, would you not think long and hard before telling me that status quo will remain, mostly because of a (temporary) housing issue or because I have never been the primary caregiver?

To make matters worse, my ex stated that she is going back to school and intends to join the workforce. She will have even less time available for children and I am retired, so status quo does not seem like a slam dunk to me, regardless how bad a father I might be, or how committed I am.

[Istanbul]

I would suggest that you have your lawyer request regular Skype time. This is a pretty standard request for parents who live long distances apart.

You indicate that you do have some vacation time with your children but this time is at grandparents place. Why not plan a summer vacation where you do an activity such as camping? See how receptive your children are to being responsible for some chores and participate in simple things such as cooking. Alternately, you could find another activity such as a horseback trip into the mountains for a week or a canoeing trip. This might be a bit of a reality check for everyone that room service is perhaps not in the future?

Yes, Skype + phone + emails is part of my lawyer's motion. I cannot see how I will be denied on this point.

A different kind of summer vacation for the children is a very good idea indeed! They enjoy the restaurant but we keep limit it to weekends during the school year

[Istanbul]

Is your family in Ontario? If Police where involved its a mandatory report to CAS. I believe you have the right to contact the school and get the information yourself. You can also contact CAS yourself, and ask about the file.

School has been tight lipped. They told me they are aware of the police incident, but they did not say anything else or how they found out. I also asked them if I could call children during lunch break since I cannot talk to them when they are at home, and school said I need a court order for them to facilitate a phone call. School has given me report cards however and I have met with teachers with no restriction.

I called CAS and they said they did not receive a police report (at least, not yet) and that if I want the CAS file, I need to get a court order.