Parental Alienation- what steps to take

[billiechic]

I apologise up front for having to provide some background info. I have been here many times but it's been a while
Daughter 8.5 years old
Custody: joint with mom having medical and dad having education
time: 50/50
History: dad was abusive, never charged but documented (photos) and by some professionals (doctor and counselor).
OCL involvement when child was 3-4 recommended above arrangement

Its been 6 years. And slowly my child has been poisoned. She has been hit by her dad, CAS has been involved no less than 7 times with nothing but a recommendation he attend parenting and anger management classes. After last CAS involvement (child self reported to counselor) he threatened her that "if she ever told anyone about bad things at Dad's house again he would send her to live with her mom forever" Sounds great but it's a withdrawal and rejection to her.
Child now refuses to see any sort of counselor for this reason. I've been trying for months to get her in to see someone and NOBODY will help us.

Things have gotten so bad that she is now outright lying to him, telling him I wont let her call him, telling exaggerated negative things about my time. She is happy to chat with him when with me but is now refusing to accept my calls. He does not give her privacy. She is telling him whatever she thinks he wants to hear, regardless if it is an outright lie. I explained to her that dad is saving up all those lies and eventually the judge will take her away from me.

thing is she tells me horrible things happen there sometimes. Like last Monday when she forgot her glasses at my house so they had to cancel an eye appointment "dad was so angry I thought he was going to kill me". She was sobbing.

its a horrible situation where my child is being pulled and torn apart. I've tried to step back and stop pulling, but he just finds something else to come after me with. He is slowly poisoning her and she is buying into it. She now believes i dont hug and kiss her enough, and all sorts of things that are being fed into her ear. Just tonight she refused to talk to me on the phone. The next thing I get is a text from him claiming I made her cry and what did I say and I shouldn't be forcing her to talk to me and get angry at her when she says no. All untrue.

I've spoken to Duty Counsel and they said FILE NOW. Then I spoke to a lawyer who said because she is now lying and believing his lies there is a chance that it will follow through and even OCL wont see it. He said she NEEDS counseling first.

I am stuck and I really need advice from people who have been there. Please help. I've been fighting this monster and trying to allow them to have a relationship but it can't be at the expense of mine with her, and with my child's mental and emotional health.
TIA

[standing on the sidelines]

ugh you are worried about your kids mental and emotional health yet you tell her that "I explained to her that dad is saving up all those lies and eventually the judge will take her away from me." That puts even more pressure on the kid. Now the poor thing probably doesn't know what to do. She is going to try and please everyone and it will tear her apart.

[arabian]

I apologise up front for having to provide some background info. I have been here many times but it's been a while
Daughter 8.5 years old
Custody: joint with mom having medical and dad having education
time: 50/50
History: dad was abusive, never charged but documented (photos) and by some professionals (doctor and counselor).
OCL involvement when child was 3-4 recommended above arrangement

Its been 6 years. And slowly my child has been poisoned. She has been hit by her dad, CAS has been involved no less than 7 times with nothing but a recommendation he attend parenting and anger management classes. After last CAS involvement (child self reported to counselor) he threatened her that "if she ever told anyone about bad things at Dad's house again he would send her to live with her mom forever" Sounds great but it's a withdrawal and rejection to her.
Child now refuses to see any sort of counselor for this reason. I've been trying for months to get her in to see someone and NOBODY will help us.

Things have gotten so bad that she is now outright lying to him, telling him I wont let her call him, telling exaggerated negative things about my time. She is happy to chat with him when with me but is now refusing to accept my calls. He does not give her privacy. She is telling him whatever she thinks he wants to hear, regardless if it is an outright lie. I explained to her that dad is saving up all those lies and eventually the judge will take her away from me.

thing is she tells me horrible things happen there sometimes. Like last Monday when she forgot her glasses at my house so they had to cancel an eye appointment "dad was so angry I thought he was going to kill me". She was sobbing.

its a horrible situation where my child is being pulled and torn apart. I've tried to step back and stop pulling, but he just finds something else to come after me with. He is slowly poisoning her and she is buying into it. She now believes i dont hug and kiss her enough, and all sorts of things that are being fed into her ear. Just tonight she refused to talk to me on the phone. The next thing I get is a text from him claiming I made her cry and what did I say and I shouldn't be forcing her to talk to me and get angry at her when she says no. All untrue.

I've spoken to Duty Counsel and they said FILE NOW. Then I spoke to a lawyer who said because she is now lying and believing his lies there is a chance that it will follow through and even OCL wont see it. He said she NEEDS counseling first.

I am stuck and I really need advice from people who have been there. Please help. I've been fighting this monster and trying to allow them to have a relationship but it can't be at the expense of mine with her, and with my child's mental and emotional health.
TIA

I think YOU need to seek some professional counselling and support first.

[arabian]

From the outside-looking-inside it seems that you are fear-mongering your child so you are no better than the other parent.

I would recommend a form of family therapy.

The text-messaging with your ex is getting you where?

Avoidance of counselling and delving into cell phone texting so that you can avoid face-to-face response seems to be your way of communication. It doesn't work.

Once you put up a retainer the lawyer will tell you whatever you want to hear.

Kid needs counselling after the parents have calmed down and sought their own sort of counselling/mediation. How would a counsellor advise a child to deal with warring parents? Duck?

[arabian]

I apologise up front for having to provide some background info. I have been here many times but it's been a while
Daughter 8.5 years old
Custody: joint with mom having medical and dad having education
time: 50/50
History: dad was abusive, never charged but documented (photos) and by some professionals (doctor and counselor).
OCL involvement when child was 3-4 recommended above arrangement

Its been 6 years. And slowly my child has been poisoned. She has been hit by her dad, CAS has been involved no less than 7 times with nothing but a recommendation he attend parenting and anger management classes. After last CAS involvement (child self reported to counselor) he threatened her that "if she ever told anyone about bad things at Dad's house again he would send her to live with her mom forever" Sounds great but it's a withdrawal and rejection to her.
Child now refuses to see any sort of counselor for this reason. I've been trying for months to get her in to see someone and NOBODY will help us.

Things have gotten so bad that she is now outright lying to him, telling him I wont let her call him, telling exaggerated negative things about my time. She is happy to chat with him when with me but is now refusing to accept my calls. He does not give her privacy. She is telling him whatever she thinks he wants to hear, regardless if it is an outright lie. I explained to her that dad is saving up all those lies and eventually the judge will take her away from me.

thing is she tells me horrible things happen there sometimes. Like last Monday when she forgot her glasses at my house so they had to cancel an eye appointment "dad was so angry I thought he was going to kill me". She was sobbing.

its a horrible situation where my child is being pulled and torn apart. I've tried to step back and stop pulling, but he just finds something else to come after me with. He is slowly poisoning her and she is buying into it. She now believes i dont hug and kiss her enough, and all sorts of things that are being fed into her ear. Just tonight she refused to talk to me on the phone. The next thing I get is a text from him claiming I made her cry and what did I say and I shouldn't be forcing her to talk to me and get angry at her when she says no. All untrue.

I've spoken to Duty Counsel and they said FILE NOW. Then I spoke to a lawyer who said because she is now lying and believing his lies there is a chance that it will follow through and even OCL wont see it. He said she NEEDS counseling first.

I am stuck and I really need advice from people who have been there. Please help. I've been fighting this monster and trying to allow them to have a relationship but it can't be at the expense of mine with her, and with my child's mental and emotional health.
TIA

WTF? Gatekeeper/control freakish?

[LovingFather32]

Seek help.

[arabian]

There is no doubt that billichic has been through the gauntlet (check her posts going back to 2009). It just seems to me (anonymous poster on the internet) that the go-to thing is/was for her to call CAS/OCS etc. if things didn't go her way.

Call me a bitch I don't care. I'm sure, as she is a "regular" with the various child welfare agencies, that there are better answers for her.

Kids grow and form their own opinions. It is not surprising that the child in this situation is rebelling if she is faced with continuous threats of loss of a parent by a judge.

Just sayin

[The Iceberg]

It is obvious that she is desperate and is trying to fight fire with fire and when things get out of control then many of us would do that.

This sentence also supports that: "if she ever told anyone about bad things at Dad's house again he would send her to live with her mom forever" Sounds great but it's a withdrawal and rejection to her.

My ex has been an alienator but she failed because she bought my threats about court actions. Tia's ex obviously knows how play this game.

Does "give it time and be the good parent, things will get back to normal" really work? Maybe. But I know people who waited and kids turned their back on them totally.

The child is too old to make up lies and stick by them. But whatever you do, do not talk to her that dad is liar. There are other ways to have this kid get back to normal despite ex's continuous poisoning because the PA syndrome has not occured yet.

[mcdreamy]

If your ex is the person whom you have described here, at the age of 8.5 years, it seems clear your child is only doing what she can to preserve herself, by any means. Unlikely she’ll self-report again, given she received no assistance the last time around.

Dealing with a systematic abuser takes patience – as you yourself should be aware after the many years you spent with your ex. I would focus on giving the kidlet the tools to deal with the anger and abuse she receives when she is with the ex. And we can teach our children the tools to be safe, without putting fear into them.

You need to avoid forcing her to choose between her two parents (she can’t make that choice) and contributing to any further stress to her. And you can’t rely on the legal system to protect her - there is no quick fix – the abusers still, for the most part, get away.

I can assure you – children seek the light, and she is not “buying into it” , she is very aware. Continue to hug her, and kiss her. If calling her when she is with him stresses her out, stop calling. She should know you have her back and you can give her that comfort 110% when she is with you and it will carry forward to her time with your ex.

You can discuss bullying techniques and personal empowerment, without directing at your ex. At this age, you should also be speaking to her in an age-appropriate manner of sexual abuse and predators – that would not be a leap. Consider enrolling her in programs that focus on personal strength and empowerment – Scouts, Guides, church programs, etc.

What on earth is duty counsel telling you to file for, when there is no material change in circumstance?

[Franklin]

Wow. So how is your little girl doing in school? and does she have a best friend? and is she healthy?

[billiechic]

Thank you to those who took the time to look at my history. FYI I have only once called CAS myself, when she told me of abuse. I quickly learned that it does no good. He has called on me numerous times out of revenge. There has never been a concern on their part for my care.
I am not trying to instigate or escalate anything. That may not be apparent from this post, but I have tried for 6 years to establish a proper co-parenting relationship. At this point I don't know if working towards cooperation is going to be effective, or if it is time to protect my child. If it is protection, how do I protect a child who rejects every attempt I make?

Look, I was abused by this person for 15 years and now another 6 as separated. By no means can I say I am perfect or I have done everything right. BUT, I did what i could to encourage change and a relationship with her dad. It is his responsibility to do the same for me, and he does not by constantly belittling everything I do and making accusations and undermining her relationship with me. It has gotten to the point where I can no longer defend his actions to her and yes, I have walked her towards a conclusion that the way he is treating her is wrong. But I have never put the words in her head. It has always been that i talk to her about the way people should treat each other and she has walked herself to that conclusion herself. My child does know it is not right (shes almost 9), but also has no idea how she can change her situation.

The situation is this: she loves her dad (as she should) but she realizes things are not going well. She is scared of his anger, she has said so many times. She has said she is afraid to do something wrong, and has said she thinks dad will stop loving her. That is NORMAL reaction for a child her age (children think everything is about them no matter whether it is or isn't). So to her the fear of dad fulfilling his threat and losing her dad overrides everything. She knows explicitly that I will love her no matter what she does wrong, and so the lesser evil is to please dad however she can and deal with whatever anger or hurt she does to mom. Because she is already sure that mom loves her unconditionally.


Yes my kids is as healthy as any other. She does not have a best friend, she has friends but has a belief that she is being singled out and bullied constantly. In my opinion and her teachers it is irrational and she is treated quite normally just like the rest of the kids. I suspect this is a reflection of her home state and not her peers.

Yes, I do have material change to request court action. I just dont know if that is the route that will effect a permanent improvement. It certainly wont make anything better right away.

My question to all of you is what do i do next?
Do you know of resources to get her to open up, to help her deal with the situation, to get her help. How do I get a child to talk (about this or just her depression and anger) when she is so dead-set against counselling.

FYI, I did enroll her in Brownies and she has been going for a year. It is her biggest love. She has done self esteem programs with Rainbows, has gone through something similar at 5 with an abuse program for moms and kids.

[billiechic]

I think YOU need to seek some professional counselling and support first.

I completely agree. I am on several waiting lists and am working with a friend who is a qualified life coach and deals with relationship issues. I am a work in progress and have been working on this for years. But I can't fix him. Dealing with him and creating cooperation and safety for her is my primary concern.

[billiechic]

ugh you are worried about your kids mental and emotional health yet you tell her that "I explained to her that dad is saving up all those lies and eventually the judge will take her away from me." That puts even more pressure on the kid. Now the poor thing probably doesn't know what to do. She is going to try and please everyone and it will tear her apart.

Yes it will. She has been talking about being pulled and tugged at for well over two years. I told her this Thursday evening. It was by no means put into her head as she already has voiced many times that is what is happening. It was an acknowledgement that I know it is happening and the reality of what lying to him will do. Maybe not a good move on my part and i regretted it instantly. But at least I am being honest about my mistakes so that I can get proper help here.

[billiechic]

From the outside-looking-inside it seems that you are fear-mongering your child so you are no better than the other parent.

I would recommend a form of family therapy.

The text-messaging with your ex is getting you where?

Avoidance of counselling and delving into cell phone texting so that you can avoid face-to-face response seems to be your way of communication. It doesn't work.

Once you put up a retainer the lawyer will tell you whatever you want to hear.

Kid needs counselling after the parents have calmed down and sought their own sort of counselling/mediation. How would a counsellor advise a child to deal with warring parents? Duck?

How long should it take for a parent to calm down? is 6 years long enough? Do you actually recommend family counselling to a parent who was abused and continues to be manipulated and controlled that long after separation? I appreciate your advice, and agree it is a good idea for most parents.

Texting is a horrible form of communication. We have tried sitting down and half the time it ends in arguing. Not exactly effective. I have asked repeated for his email address and yet he wont give it. I have requested, ordered huim to stop texting me, have blocked him fro short periods of time. If I go back to court I will ask for an email monitoring program. They used to recommed Family Wizard. I don't want to stop communication but to keep it relevant. Not getting texts telling me how he didn't like my ex-boyfriend (who I have not seen in 3 years) or that I am a bad mom because I forgot to send her a spoon in her lunch.

[billiechic]

I can see Arabian that you are still a judgemental ass and can't be bothered to go back in the history or actually try to help solve a problem. Some people never change