More section 7

[wls]

I have searched through many posts on this topic and I am not having any luck finding the answers that I am looking for. My two kids are in girls guides and sparks. The total cost is around $500.00 per year combined for this extracurricular activity. I don't have an issue paying for things but I feel like I'm being taken advantage of since none of this was brought up in mediation it is all very unclear. Is thyere a min or max for section 7 and does her being self employed have any impact on how much I am supposed to pay or is it all based on line 150 of both incomes? At times I am being given receipts for $50.00 for a camping weekend and expected to pay 75 percent of it. One time I got a receipt for $15.00 for a sleep over with Sparks and I was expected to pay 75 percent as well.

Any help would be appreciated

[rockscan]

What does your agreement say? What other activities are they in? What is your ex's income level with cs amounts?

You have to ask yourself these questions: is this the only activity your kids are in? Do they enjoy it? Is 75% of $500 unreasonable for your kids' annual activity?

If you dont have an agreement, make sure you get it clearly written.

[stripes]

There is no minimum or maximum, unless it's written into your agreement. However, all S7 expenses must be agreed to by both parents (with a few exceptions like child care or medical expenses). S7 costs are generally split proportional to income, and self-employment is not a factor. You can tell your ex that you approve of the kids being in Guides and Sparks, but you would like her to inform you in writing of any costs beforehand, rather than telling you about it after the fact. 75% of $500 is $375, which strikes me as a reasonable amount for a year of extracurricular activities for two kids, unless your income is extremely low.

[Toutou]

I think that he is more wondering whether the amount that small should be covered by CS he is already paying. That would depend on your ex's income and the amount of the CS support you are paying.

But everyone will say just pay it, it is not big amount. That how the CS recipients start feeling entitled to be reimbursed for every single thing they spend on kids! And then the payors become more and more resentful for paying for things that they should not...

[rockscan]

This isnt a school trip, hot lunch or a minor activity that CS would cover. Its an annual extra curricular activity. Girl Guides/Brownies/Sparks break down the costs to smaller amounts like this so more kids who might not be able to afford it can participate. THIS expense is not unreasonable but she still has to get your written consent first.

Her income and your income are used for the calculation.

Its when requests start coming for multiple piddly things like dances, hot lunches, school trips etc that are normally covered by cs that become an issue.

If you want to avoid the constant "more money" argument, speak to the GG/S leader about the expected annual activities. I was a leader years ago and can tell you we had a year plan for activities but werent able to determine costs until closer to the events because not every girl attended which changed costs.

[Toutou]

Based on the guidelines, the parents are supposed to split proportionately EXTRAORDINARY extracurricular activities. 500$ for girl guides for two kids comes to 42$ per month. While girl guides/sparks are extracurricular activities, I don't see anything EXTRAORDINARY about them unless both their incomes are extremely low.

[rockscan]

Exactly. You dont know their incomes so you dont know if its extraordinary or not. He was complaining about the constant piddly costs. Guess what though, if he agreed to have them in the activity, he agreed to the costs for the year whether they are up front or monthly or here and there. Thats the bottom line: he agreed to the expense and unfortunately that expense is coming here and there not all at once like some activities.

[HammerDad]

Guides and Sparks MAY be extraordinary, and thus s7 applies. But IMO, for the nominal amount, I'd simply pay it.

For the nickle and dime stuff, like $15 for a sleepover or $50 for a camping weekend, I would respond with "while the expense in question relates to an extra-curricular activity, the amount is not extra-ordinary, thus would covered by child support." And leave it at that. If she comes back with "you need to pay this", reply in the same manner as before that expenses need to be "extra-ordinary" in relation to the combined parents income (as that factors in c/s) in order for s7 to apply.

[HammerDad]

Exactly. You dont know their incomes so you dont know if its extraordinary or not. He was complaining about the constant piddly costs. Guess what though, if he agreed to have them in the activity, he agreed to the costs for the year whether they are up front or monthly or here and there. Thats the bottom line: he agreed to the expense and unfortunately that expense is coming here and there not all at once like some activities.

My D9's dance is about $4000 a year. Costumes are about $1200. Dance shoes are $40-$80 each, the odd pair of tights are $40, makeup $75 or so and so on. I pay for dance and costumes and some of the more expensive items in relation to dance. I don't pay for $20 hair accessories or a new crop top.

[wls]

Toutou you are exactly right I am starting to be resentful ( I have many reasons to be but that is something to be discussed on another forum) of all this and yes I am wondering if these little amounts should be covered under the CS that I currently pay. (Not sure if I should be sharing $$$ amounts or not) She is self-employed (day home) and according to line 150 on her taxes she makes much less so I have to pay much more. Why does my total income come in to play but her total income does not? I read in the forums that tax breaks she can claim should come into the picture as well and this was not mentioned in mediation. If I have to pay for GG I am fine with it but if the amount is something that should be covered given the amount of CS she is receiving then I don't feel I should have to continue to pay.

Hammerdad, the fees she is requesting are not ever month and this is why I don't feel I should have to pay given the amount of CS she receives. $40.00 in January, $15.00 in February and so on. Total fees for the year is around $500 per year.

rockscan....You say to pay because the amount because it is small. I will agree to a point. But when she starts a fight over a $15.00 school fee that should/is covered under CS and threatens to remove children from an activity and tell them that she can't afford to put them in it because Dad won't give her money where do you draw the line?

[HammerDad]

Hammerdad, the fees she is requesting are not ever month and this is why I don't feel I should have to pay given the amount of CS she receives. $40.00 in January, $15.00 in February and so on. Total fees for the year is around $500 per year.

Those amounts ($40 here and $15 there) are not s7, notwithstanding that they may relate to an extra-curricular activity. To be s7 the cost must relate to an extra-curricular activity AND be extra-ordinary in its amount. Unless you pay $150 in c/s and she is pretty much on welfare, I don't see how anyone would consider $15 s7.

Child support contemplates certain amounts each month for activities for the child. C/S isn't simply food and shelter, it covers much broader costs. Ones that the parent who receives c/s would pay in the day to day life of the child.

You may have created a monster by agreeing to pay these to begin with, and taming that monster now is going to be hard. The ex will use the kids to guilt you. The thing is, you shouldn't feel guilty. You pay these amounts when you pay c/s. If your ex wants to deprive the kids because you won't pay more than you have to, than that is their issue.

I do know how you feel. Even though my ex is pretty reasonable, and I don't get many minimal requests, there are a still that filter through which I deal with on a case by case basis.

[stripes]

Toutou you are exactly right I am starting to be resentful ( I have many reasons to be but that is something to be discussed on another forum) of all this and yes I am wondering if these little amounts should be covered under the CS that I currently pay. (Not sure if I should be sharing $$$ amounts or not) She is self-employed (day home) and according to line 150 on her taxes she makes much less so I have to pay much more. Why does my total income come in to play but her total income does not? I read in the forums that tax breaks she can claim should come into the picture as well and this was not mentioned in mediation. If I have to pay for GG I am fine with it but if the amount is something that should be covered given the amount of CS she is receiving then I don't feel I should have to continue to pay.

Hammerdad, the fees she is requesting are not ever month and this is why I don't feel I should have to pay given the amount of CS she receives. $40.00 in January, $15.00 in February and so on. Total fees for the year is around $500 per year.

rockscan....You say to pay because the amount because it is small. I will agree to a point. But when she starts a fight over a $15.00 school fee that should/is covered under CS and threatens to remove children from an activity and tell them that she can't afford to put them in it because Dad won't give her money where do you draw the line?

A couple of thoughts:

1. Tax breaks exists for certain kinds of extracurricular activities (those covered by the Child Fitness tax credit and the Child Arts tax credit). I don't think Sparks/Guides would be covered by either of those, so your ex isn't getting tax benefits from them.

2. (I'm assuming the kids are living primarily with your ex). Her income isn't relevant to CS because as the kids are living with her, it's presumed that she is spending a lot of her income on them every day, so a set amount per month doesn't need to be determined as her contribution to the kids. Because you are not living with them, a set amount does need to be determined as you are not making daily expenditures. The amount of CS you pay is based on an estimation of how much a parent at your income level would typically spend on caring for his/her children.

3. Some possibilities: you could tell your ex you will split Guides costs above a certain threshold (e.g. things that cost more than $50 you share, such as a uniform. Under $50, such as a pizza lunch, it's assumed to be covered by CS,). Or you could say you're willing to share S7 costs up to an annual maximum, say up to $500. The important thing is that you are both clear where the limits are so neither of you has unrealistic expectations.

[wls]

I have already asked if we could split the cost of these fees and it started a huge fight because as far as she is concerned EVERYTHING is an S7 and she wants her money. Is there anyplace that I can go to find out more information about this? The more websites I visit it seems the more confused I get lol.

Yes the kids live with their mother and I know her income does not have anything to do with CS it's the S7 expenses that I am referring to. As we all know S7 are shared based on the income but because she is self-employed her income at tax time is much less then her gross income so I pay 75 and she pays 25 of S7 expenses. I feel this is wrong in so many ways.

[stripes]

The problem is that the word "extraordinary" is not clearly defined - there are court cases in which judges determine whether a certain expense in a certain case is "extraordinary", but these are typically cases involving thousands of dollars for horse shows or ski jumping, not the scale of what you're describing.

My divorce order spells out exactly what will be considered S7 (fees and equipment for Kid's sport of choice, winter gear costing over $50 per item, annual school fees, medical expenses not covered by insurance, and a few other items). If it's not on the list, we both know it's not S7. He's tried to argue a few items (e.g. a Halloween costume), but I can point to the list and that's that.

As for the income split for S7, I want to say kindly, get over it. You earn three time as much as your ex, but the children as just as much yours as they are hers. You should be carrying as much of the burden as she is, which means that the dollar figures from you will be higher because the number of dollars you have is also much higher.

If you really, really don't want to pay for an extracurricular activity, you can tell your ex you won't do so. She may get upset, but legally, you don't have to pay for anything non-essential unless you have agreed to it in advance.

[HammerDad]

Here is the government website:

Step 7: Determine if there are special or extraordinary expenses - The Federal Child Support Guidelines: Step-by-Step

It provides a decent overview of what S7 expenses are and how they should be handled.

Here is another page:

Frequently Asked Questions About Special Expenses | Family Law Nova Scotia

A google search on section 7 expenses will bring up these pages and many more.