"Truism Exposed?": Justice Quinn says your complaints are as common as teeth!

[Tayken]

While it sounds like a complete trainwreck, with duelling parents working hard to screw up the kids, I was taken aback by the sarcastic and snide tone employed by the judge. Many of her comments are clever and funny, but struck me as unprofessional, compared to other cases I have read.

If you are not familiar Justice Quinn is one of the most cited justices in the Ontario Superior Court of Justice, Family Law.

Also, I guess you have never read Bruni v. Bruni (Justice Quinn) or the hundreds of articles written about it either.

In family court, a judge turns to ridicule to defuse the rage - The Globe and Mail

And he anticipates criticism of his tone: "The parties repeatedly have shown they are immune to reason. Consequently, in my decision, I have tried ridicule as a last resort."

Furthermore this is what Phil Epstien (A highly respected family law lawyer) had to say:

Toronto lawyer Phil Epstein, an expert in family law, describes Judge Quinn as a respected jurist who was justified in ridiculing the couple. "I'm sure there will be some who criticize Justice Quinn for this," he said. "But others will say that sometimes you have to step back and laugh at the foibles of mankind."

Family law judges spent their time dealing with inflamed litigants whose stories are "highly conflicting and replete with inappropriate behaviour and misconduct," Mr. Epstein said. "They use the courtroom as a forum for all the wrongs that have been done to them in their marriage. It is not surprising that some judges try to find a better way to help resolve their problems."

So, although you may take offense, I am of a similar opinion as Kirk (author of the article) and Phil on his approach to these high conflict cases.

Of what possible relevance is it that one party has used five different surnames, or that Hank Williams recorded a song in 1950 that describes a situation similar to the respondent's?

See the article above. The parties submitted something in the matter that is completely irrelevant thinking the evidence was "relevant". He is just taking a different approach with two parents who won't listen to rational thought. So he is using satire to identify the complete absurdity of the matter.

(See the article linked above...)

I have no doubt that dealing with people like these two, day in and day out (65 appearances in court in 10 years!) is frustrating, but the judge comes off as flippant and exasperated, rather than thoughtful.

To you. But, to the rest of the legal profession (e.g. Phil Epstein) it is justified and needed. It is actually welcomed by most involved in the nonsense that is 90% of family law trials.

I have a job where I am frequently dealing with people whom I think are unreasonable, but I try to keep my exasperation out of official communication.

Justice Quinn takes a different approach and has always... He is the justice who famously identified that a child is not an appendage of a mother and that breast feeding will have to end one day. He takes a very pragmatic and frank approach to matters. Often, it is exactly what these highly conflicted matters need. Someone to identify how stupid it all is.

Take a couple of yoga breaths, go for a walk, visualize your happy place ... and then sit down and get back to work.

Not to be insulting but, you should spend more time in a court room. A large portion of that before the family courts is nonsense like this.

Oh and here is the link to Bruni v. Bruni for you: CanLII - 2010 ONSC 6568 (CanLII)

Good Luck!
Tayken

[stripes]

If you are not familiar Justice Quinn is one of the most cited justices in the Ontario Superior Court of Justice, Family Law.



Not to be insulting but, you should spend more time in a court room. A large portion of that before the family courts is nonsense like this.

Oh and here is the link to Bruni v. Bruni for you: CanLII - 2010 ONSC 6568 (CanLII)

Good Luck!
Tayken

No offense taken at all. I have been fortunate enough to avoid all courtrooms so far, so I'm not familiar with what is considered acceptable in judgments like these. Justice Quinn certainly has a knack for vivid expressions, and probably has a future as a novelist if she ever retires from the bench.

[Tayken]

Yes, that's right, I was forced to go to court, so if they want a play, then let's play, let's rock them hard, and this is what I'm going to do. There is a dark road ahead, but at the end I'm going to see the sun for my little ones!

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And as a result of your attitude (see red) that your children will truly lose Paco.

1. Family law is not a war - there are NO WINNERS.

2. There are only losers in family law. Parents lose and children truly LOSE when their parents "rock the other party hard".

3. Your attitude needs to change NOW on your position and approach to family law.

4. If you have a lawyer, no doubt you will be the next poster who will come to this forum jaded, stating that family law is against them and that they spent all their money pursuing nonsense arguments and blaming everyone but themselves for their results.

5. Family law is not about "justice". It is not about "morals".

6. Emotional reasoning is not evidence.

7. You and the other parent would be better served attending a more therapeutic-oriented intervention with someone like Dr. Barbara Landau conducting mediating-arbitrating than fighting it out in court.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[OrleansLawyer]

2. There are only losers in family law. Parents lose and children truly LOSE when their parents "rock the other party hard".

Following up on this, some questions:

What is your desired outcome from the court process?

If you had the choice, would you rather express love for your children or hatred for your ex? Do you hate your ex more than you love your children?

Do you acknowledge that your children may love both of their parents, and will feel any hurt inflicted on a loved one?

Have you considered counselling, to address the feelings of anger towards your ex, and disappointment that changes in your life (potentially because of your ex initiating them) have resulted in a decrease in your overall satisfaction with life?

[paco]

And as a result of your attitude (see red) that your children will truly lose Paco.

1. Family law is not a war - there are NO WINNERS.

2. There are only losers in family law. Parents lose and children truly LOSE when their parents "rock the other party hard".

3. Your attitude needs to change NOW on your position and approach to family law.

4. If you have a lawyer, no doubt you will be the next poster who will come to this forum jaded, stating that family law is against them and that they spent all their money pursuing nonsense arguments and blaming everyone but themselves for their results.

5. Family law is not about "justice". It is not about "morals".

6. Emotional reasoning is not evidence.

7. You and the other parent would be better served attending a more therapeutic-oriented intervention with someone like Dr. Barbara Landau conducting mediating-arbitrating than fighting it out in court.

Good Luck!
Tayken

Tayken, it's so easy to judge but hard to be in a position when you have to fight with a system, my attitude has been changed completely since she took the kids away from me and continuously trying to isolate them from me, creating a status quo by abuse and deceit, so don't get confused by my wording, there is no hate in that but determination to fight for my rights as an equal parent, I was always an equal parent, and my children deserves equal parenting, I strongly believe in this. Btw, I had a lawyer and I fired her, a very expensive one, she didn't believe of that what I have to do is the right thing for my kids, so I let her go. No one can ever better represent me but myself.
About your last sentence #7, she's the kind of person that doesn't communicate, it's complicated and it's not the time and place to explain in details here. What I can say is that we had a million other options rather than to go through court, it was not my call, so since I let my former lawyer go I understood very well what family law stands for, and I really hope that judges do too.
Thanks for your understanding and comments too, Tayken. Cheers.

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[Tayken]

Tayken, it's so easy to judge but hard to be in a position when you have to fight with a system, my attitude has been changed completely since she took the kids away from me and continuously trying to isolate them from me, creating a status quo by abuse and deceit, so don't get confused by my wording, there is no hate in that but determination to fight for my rights as an equal parent, I was always an equal parent, and my children deserves equal parenting, I strongly believe in this.

Paco, that quote above is all one sentence. Before proceeding to "defend" yourself really contemplate what you have written above.

1. I have offered advice based on statements (direct quotes I add) to your own words. How those words can possibly harm you, your position and more importantly your relationship with your children. It is simply not a judging you, it is leveraging your own statements and providing a different perspective.

2. Review what OrleansLawyer has written above. Really consider it. Seriously consider it. Try to answer his questions... If not on this forum at least to yourself!

3. "when you have to fight with a system" - You are not fighting a system. Until you realize this you will find no "success" in what you are trying to achieve on your file. You are not "fighting" with anyone but yourself possibly. Do consider that.

4. "continuously trying to isolate them from me, creating a status quo by abuse and deceit" - As you are the only person that truly knows what is occuring on your file it is hard to respond to statements like this. What you need to understand is that it is all in how you approach the situation. Have you ever considered that the one who is isolating themselves in this situation is you? Your conduct, anger and anxieties may in fact be the reason you are where you are. Please consider OrleansLawyer's comment about seeking a therapist out.

5. Your life is not a Beastie Boys video and you don't have to "fight for (your) rights as an equal paaaaaaaaaarrrrrrreeeeeeeennnnntttttt!" By "fighting" you may very well be demonstrating to the court that you are not capable of being an 'equal parent'.

6. Equal parents don't fight each other to parent. They cooperate and collaborate. They don't attack and "fight"...

Btw, I had a lawyer and I fired her, a very expensive one, she didn't believe of that what I have to do is the right thing for my kids, so I let her go.

So, you fired a professional you hired to assist you? One that is educated and has experience in Family Law? Do you think that was a good idea considering the feedback you are getting from very senior respondents on this forum?

I don't believe your tactics of aggression that you are demonstrating here are going to bring you any closure in your matter.

No one can ever better represent me but myself.

"I hesitate not to pronounce, that every person who is their own lawyer, has a fool for a client."

About your last sentence #7, she's the kind of person that doesn't communicate, it's complicated and it's not the time and place to explain in details here.

Consider this case law before proceeding on trying to alledge that the other parent doesn't communicate.

CanLII - 2011 ONSC 4305 (CanLII)

[72] While some measure of communication and cooperation between the parties is necessary to support a joint custody order, the court is not required to apply a standard of perfection in assessing the ability of the parents to work together. As Quinn, J. remarked in Brook v. Brook, “the cooperation needed is workable, not blissful; adequate, not perfect.”[21]

[73] A mere statement by one party that there is an inability to communicate will not be sufficient to preclude a joint custody order. The court must carefully consider the parties’ past and current parenting relationship to obtain the “big picture” respecting the parties’ ability to communicate, rather than simply relying on allegations of conflict by one or both of the parties, or a snapshot of the situation that exists at the time of trial.[22]

It isn't complicated really. Most people "believe" that they need to communicate daily with the other parent to successfully have joint custody and equal residency of children. In fact, you don't need much communication if your children do not have any special needs. The most successful situations are when the parents communicate as little as possible and in a parallel style of equal parenting.

What I can say is that we had a million other options rather than to go through court, it was not my call, so since I let my former lawyer go I understood very well what family law stands for, and I really hope that judges do too.

I would disagree based on my limited interactions with you on this forum. You don't take feedback well. Your communication style is very aggressive in nature and you play the role of a "systemic victim" in your responses. It doesn't surprise me that the other party brought the matter to court and that you have subsequently "fired" your lawyer...

You fire professionals when they disagree with you... You think the "system" is against you...

Really think hard about your conduct and how you respond to this message. Take your time really thinking this all over...

Good Luck!
Tayken

[FB_]

Paco, that quote above is all one sentence. Before proceeding to "defend" yourself really contemplate what you have written above.

1. I have offered advice based on statements (direct quotes I add) to your own words. How those words can possibly harm you, your position and more importantly your relationship with your children. It is simply not a judging you, it is leveraging your own statements and providing a different perspective.

2. Review what OrleansLawyer has written above. Really consider it. Seriously consider it. Try to answer his questions... If not on this forum at least to yourself!

3. "when you have to fight with a system" - You are not fighting a system. Until you realize this you will find no "success" in what you are trying to achieve on your file. You are not "fighting" with anyone but yourself possibly. Do consider that.

4. "continuously trying to isolate them from me, creating a status quo by abuse and deceit" - As you are the only person that truly knows what is occuring on your file it is hard to respond to statements like this. What you need to understand is that it is all in how you approach the situation. Have you ever considered that the one who is isolating themselves in this situation is you? Your conduct, anger and anxieties may in fact be the reason you are where you are. Please consider OrleansLawyer's comment about seeking a therapist out.

5. Your life is not a Beastie Boys video and you don't have to "fight for (your) rights as an equal paaaaaaaaaarrrrrrreeeeeeeennnnntttttt!" By "fighting" you may very well be demonstrating to the court that you are not capable of being an 'equal parent'.

6. Equal parents don't fight each other to parent. They cooperate and collaborate. They don't attack and "fight"...



So, you fired a professional you hired to assist you? One that is educated and has experience in Family Law? Do you think that was a good idea considering the feedback you are getting from very senior respondents on this forum?

I don't believe your tactics of aggression that you are demonstrating here are going to bring you any closure in your matter.



"I hesitate not to pronounce, that every person who is their own lawyer, has a fool for a client."



Consider this case law before proceeding on trying to alledge that the other parent doesn't communicate.

CanLII - 2011 ONSC 4305 (CanLII)



It isn't complicated really. Most people "believe" that they need to communicate daily with the other parent to successfully have joint custody and equal residency of children. In fact, you don't need much communication if your children do not have any special needs. The most successful situations are when the parents communicate as little as possible and in a parallel style of equal parenting.



I would disagree based on my limited interactions with you on this forum. You don't take feedback well. Your communication style is very aggressive in nature and you play the role of a "systemic victim" in your responses. It doesn't surprise me that the other party brought the matter to court and that you have subsequently "fired" your lawyer...

You fire professionals when they disagree with you... You think the "system" is against you...

Really think hard about your conduct and how you respond to this message. Take your time really thinking this all over...

Good Luck!
Tayken

You need to consider what Tayken has said. He advised me of some of the very same things two years ago. You need to prove what YOU are not the OTHER person. The second I started doing this I became very successful and ultimately reached a settlement for exactly what I wanted. The only way this was possible was to AVOID conflict. Simply state you are an equal parent. Act like an equal parent, and prove you are an equal parent. The rest is all NOISE to distract you and ensure you act like an idiot.

Read it and Read it again until this sinks in.

Also read this book.

http://www.amazon.ca/Tug-War-Verdict.../dp/1550228706

[paco]

Thanks FB_ and Tayken, much appreciated your advices.

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[paco]

Tayken, please read this article so you'll further understand what I meant when I said "fight with a system", I should probably specify "biased system", please let us know your thoughts regarding this new Bill C-560:
http://ww2.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blo...ld-be-the-norm

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[drainedbysystem]

Excellent post! Wow Justice Quinn is right. Personality disorders are fuel for the peverse fire in family court. The Marriage has ended. Its quite simple actually... Be a responsible and dedicated parent. Stop fighting the ex. They're history and move forward for the sake of everyone involved. Be fair.

It takes two to tango in family court. Some use it as a mechanism to advance their own sadistic agendas. Is a war really doing yourself any justice. It's costly and emotionally draining.Nobody cares about the past because honestly we are all numbers in the system.

Then there are those like me who hate to be in the courts period. You cant work with someone who is unwilling to work with you. I'm forced to be in court because I desparetely need a judge to put the fire out.

Its also about forgiveness and letting go....for the sake of your children. Every kid needs their mom and dad regardless of the conflict you share with your ex. You need the court to help you find the best plan to WORK with your ex. The court is not there to help you FIGHT with your ex.

[Tayken]

Tayken, please read this article so you'll further understand what I meant when I said "fight with a system", I should probably specify "biased system", please let us know your thoughts regarding this new Bill C-560:
Barbara Kay: After a divorce, equal parenting rights should be the norm

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Paco, again, you should focus on what is relevant to your matter and not using the family law proceedings to lament about what Barbra Kay writes in the national post and legislation - especially a private members bill. None of it is relevant to your matter.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublicati...&DocId=6375891

(Have you ever looked up how many Private Members Bills have been passed into law? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private...;s_bill#Passed)

I hate to be the one to burst your bubble but, I have about as much faith in Private Members Bills as I do in the FSM.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[paco]

Tayken, I disagree and I'm not going to comment your beliefs 'cause you again failed to get my point. Cheers.

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[Tayken]

Tayken, I disagree and I'm not going to comment your beliefs 'cause you again failed to get my point. Cheers.

Well, that is your prerogative. As you don't feel my replies are necessary I have now added you to my ignore feature as to not further fail to get your point in the future. My words and those of others appear to be lost on you.

One day I hope you can see through the cloud of anger, hate and blame that you surround yourself in. If I am not seeing your point - I can guarantee you that a justice will not get your point either.

As a last "peace" of advice... I regularly observe the justices in the Superior Court of Justice in Brampton (Peel) which is where matters from Mississauga are heard. You list your location as Mississauga on your public profile of this site and warn you that your views, conduct, words and other expressions of emotion on this forum will NOT be taken lightly by Justice Mossip, Justice Lemon, Justice Ricchetti , Justice Coroza, et all...

Brampton is one of the most progressive family law courts and some of the above justices are known to be the most "father friendly" justices. If you go in and insult them saying that they are systemically against them they will think (no know) you are high-conflict.

I can guarantee you that they will not listen to your nonsense about being a victim of the system and your other wasteful lamenting. Be prepared to pay full costs to the other party for any nonsense you bring forward or any wasteful argument about your "rights". Also, be prepared to possibly be an EoW parent with no custody.

FB_, myself and others are only trying to help. It is clear to me that there is very little we can help you with.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[paco]

... just cut my posting, not worthy.

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[DowntroddenDad]

Tayken, speak for yourself and not for other's name, if you are a lawyer then good luck with your clients, nothing more to say about your conduct here.

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In this matter, Tayken can speak for me. His conduct here may not be what you want to hear, but it comes from experience not emotion.