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What are said 7 expenses in Ontario

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  • Mess
    replied
    Originally posted by stripes View Post
    I believe (though I could be wrong) that daycare, extracurricular activity fees and children's camps are almost always considered S7 - no ambiguity about those.
    Child care is always a section 7 if it is required by the parents so that they can go to work. After school child care, summer camps, and after school rec programs for older kids would fall into this category.

    If the parent is available to pick up the child, or if they are old enough to be on their own for the full time needed, then it isn't a section 7 automatically.

    Any other activities depend on the income of the parent(s). There are a number of criteria. Was the child involved in this activity before the marriage break down? Is the cost very high considering the parent's income? Is the child performing at a very high level and so would need very high level and expensive training/coaching? In short, there need to be stated factual reasons why the extra expense is justified.

    If there is 50/50 shared custody then almost all expenses should be shared 50/50 anyway as a starting point, and then the question of a proportional split is addressed. The exception might be, if the child was ALWAYS at one parent's home on Wednesdays and the activity was always on Wednesdays, and the other parent was never involved, then this is an expense incurred by one parent. It should come out of their budget and/or child support received.

    If there is 50/50 and each parent is in turn taking the child to lessons/practice/competition, then it is a no-brainer that the cost should be split 50/50.

    Ideally there should be a percentage of disposable income calculation to say when a cost passes the threshold from ordinary to extraordinary. To my knowledge there is none. $100 per month for swimming lessons is easy for someone earning six figures; it is a challenge for someone earning minimum wage.

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  • Toutou
    replied
    Stripes, since you have shared custody, your situatation is different from a situation where one parent pays full amount of the child support.

    As for extracuricular expenses, they are not automatically considered as S. 7 expenses, only if they are extraordinary (otherwise there would not be need for word extraordinary in the law).

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  • stripes
    replied
    I believe (though I could be wrong) that daycare, extracurricular activity fees and children's camps are almost always considered S7 - no ambiguity about those.

    The others may vary from one divorce to another. In my order, I laid out pretty explicitly what would be considered S7 to attempt to avoid misinterpretation down the line. (Any of the above over $50 are S7 in my order, as well as birthday parties, school supplies, athletic equipment, and winter clothing above $50. I know this is a little more detailed than other people's, but our incomes are very close - I pay $138 per month in offset CS and we have 50/50 custody - so there's not a lot of CS being transferred to cover these expenditures, and I thought we should split them proportionately [and ex eventually decided he could live with this]. So far he's balked at reimbursing me what he's agreed to cover, but that's another story).

    Two more thoughts about negotiating S7 - in addition to being very explicit about what is and isn't going to be counted, you may want to 1) add language saying that neither parent will incur an expense for which they expect to be reimbursed without first obtaining the other parent's written consent; and 2) specify that S7 will be reconciled on specific dates, like the last days of April, August and December, to prevent arrears and unpaid reimbursements from piling up.

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  • mom2three
    replied
    Originally posted by billm View Post
    $100 does not follow the guidelines, nor is it reasonable. $100 is not extraordinary for some people by any means.


    My 3 kids play house league hockey - about $2000 total for all 3 for 6 months, and that is all they do outside of school for the most part. Our combined income is 150K. This is not section 7, not even close. (Mind you my ex refuses to pay for any of it, let alone proportional, nor does she pay me the tiny offset CS she should this year, but I digress...)
    I do believe Orleans Lawyer once indicated the $100.00 threshold, but that needs to be put into perspective by considering particular case facts.

    WITL: I realize that you are now heading towards trial. With that in mind, you should be making offers to settle. S. 7 can be considered in that offer. For example, in our agreement it is specifically set out what the other party is responsible for for s. 7 (one winter and one summer activity fee {Mom pays incidentals plus proportional health)

    Depending on your families circumstances, that would be different. But I can assure you diapers are not extraordinary. Read Hammer Dad's post and go from there.

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  • BluePat
    replied
    Just to clarify, that's $100 over the course of a year, correct?..

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  • billm
    replied
    Originally posted by hadenough View Post
    ^ I believe that $100 is indeed the standard ^

    ** WITL: there are several useful threads on ODF re: Section 7 expenses.
    $100 does not follow the guidelines, nor is it reasonable. $100 is not extraordinary for some people by any means.

    I would go by what HammerDad said in its entirety.

    Diapers are so far from Section 7, it isn't funny.

    If the combined income of the parents is reasonable (well above minimum wage), all the items in the list should be covered by CS (again, taking in to account what HD said in its entirety)

    My 3 kids play house league hockey - about $2000 total for all 3 for 6 months, and that is all they do outside of school for the most part. Our combined income is 150K. This is not section 7, not even close. (Mind you my ex refuses to pay for any of it, let alone proportional, nor does she pay me the tiny offset CS she should this year, but I digress...)

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  • hadenough
    replied
    ^ I believe that $100 is indeed the standard ^

    ** WITL: there are several useful threads on ODF re: Section 7 expenses.

    Leave a comment:


  • stripes
    replied
    OP - I would say all the items on your list are S7, except possibly diapers (unless the diapers are needed for an older child with a disability) and school trips (unless the trip is a big expensive one). In my divorce order there's language saying that anything under $50 is not S7, to prevent nickel-and-diming. I think the more usual figure is that anything under $100 is not S7.

    Leave a comment:


  • HammerDad
    replied
    Step 7: dealing with special expenses - The Federal Child Support Guidelines: Step-by-Step

    The amounts in the tables are a starting point. In many cases, children may have special expenses.


    The guidelines define special expenses as expenses that are:
    • necessary because they are in a child's best interests, and
    • reasonable in relation to the means of the parents and of the child and consistent with the family's spending patterns prior to the separation.
    You and the other parent may agree on how to divide payment for special expenses and may agree that an amount should be added to the basic child support amount in the table. In your agreement you can even list special expenses that you expect to incur years later. For example, you may wish to arrange for paying uninsured dental expenses, day care and contributions towards university tuition.
    You can consider special expenses when you set child support amounts in sole custody or split custody arrangements.
    Special expenses are:
    • child-care expenses that a parent with whom the child lives incurs as a result of the parent's job, illness, disability or educational requirements for employment,
    • the portion of a parent's medical and dental insurance premiums that provides coverage for the child,
    • the child's health-care needs over and above that covered by insurance (for example, orthodontics, counselling, medication, eye care and other items) that exceed $100 per year,
    • the child's extraordinary expenses for extracurricular activities,
    • the child's extraordinary expenses for primary and secondary education or other educational programs, and,
    • the child's expenses for post-secondary education.
    The term extraordinary expenses means:
    • expenses that are higher than those that the parent requesting an amount for the extraordinary expenses can reasonably cover, in light of that parent's income (including the child support amount), or
    • expenses that aren't higher than those that the parent requesting an amount for the extraordinary expenses can reasonably cover, but that are extraordinary taking into account:
      • the income (including child support) of that parent,
      • the nature and number of the programs and extracurricular activities,
      • any special needs and talents of the child,
      • the overall cost of the programs and activities, and
      • any other similar factor that is relevant.
    You and the other parent are free to decide if a special expense is reasonable and necessary and how much each of you will contribute to them. As a general rule, you will share in the special expense in proportion to your incomes, but you may agree to any other arrangement. Worksheet 2 at the back of this booklet can help you calculate special expenses.
    If you cannot agree about special expenses

    If you cannot agree on which special expenses are reasonable and necessary or how to pay for them, either of you may ask a judge to decide, or ask a third party, such as a lawyer or a mediator to help you.


    Edit - these are generally paid proportionally to income.

    Leave a comment:


  • Where is the Light
    started a topic What are said 7 expenses in Ontario

    What are said 7 expenses in Ontario

    Can anyone list out what said 7 expenses are in Ontario?

    Childrens camps?
    Daycare?
    School trips????????
    Diapers?
    Hobbies/sports? - Playing on a hockey team one would have to pay for?

    Are the above said 7 expenses? What else?

    Thank you.
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