Where we are and where we are heading...

[WorkingDAD]

Hello All,

As many of you know I am back in court.

I did promise to provide endorsement resulted long motion re: access. For some reason it's not published yet on CanLii. Despite that it still public record and I think I can give a link to scanned PDF so thous of you who interested can read (and comment if feel like it).

2012 ONSC 3104

Here is what happened since:

1. Mom brought 2 motions trying to re argue same issue. Last one (emergency, Ex-Parte) was Aug 10 (yes I was served 2 days before the date) what judge basically used as opportunity to check where we are and when we will be ready for trial. Interesting enough the big part of moms materials were regarding "child abused in fathers care" and should be taken from him ASAP. - this issue what not even brought in court - not by mom either by his Honour.

2. Kijiji disclosure confirmed that two posts in questions came from mom's IP, linked to moms email, date and text of Ad as well a as that Ad deleted by user.

3. Google give basically nothing and just confirmed that moms account deleted. Mom previously wrote on affidavit that she requested from Google to delete it and they deleted it. (yes I know that it's not how it's work)

4. OFW provided with 500 pages of logs. Cost ~600 buks. Mom refuse to pay her half claiming that she do not have monies despite order on consent that parties share cost of disclosure. Judge said last Friday that I can not make her to print monies and that he hope that I will pay her half and we will deal with this later.

5. Mom refused to do questioning (examination on discovery) which was ordered to be done by the end of June (costed me already about $500). Last Friday Judge told mom you will not have trial date before questioning and disclosure are done.

6. Come back to court in September.

So here we go. Moms theory as of now that yes Kijiji posts come from her IP (because it mach with OFW) but that was not her who created thous and somebody used her IP (as it very easy to fake) to create it. Google did not confirm that emails where from her IPs so in her mind that proves that she did not do it.

So what is your toughs on how it will develop?

Keep in mind that mom is reading so please do not give her some new ideas - I have so much to cover in trial that I am not sure it will be shorter than previous one.

WD

[Mess]

I can't imagine how it will develop, but this is a fascinating illustration of how to use emails as evidence. I'd love it if you wrote a step-by-step how to, and how you are getting along with Google and Kajiji.

[WorkingDAD]

I can't imagine how it will develop, but this is a fascinating illustration of how to use emails as evidence. I'd love it if you wrote a step-by-step how to, and how you are getting along with Google and Kajiji.

Well,
I am not sure what exactly you meant by

getting along with Google and Kajiji

but from how I understand it I do not think I am getting along with any of them. As I said Google did not provide anything ... Kijiji at least gave something (but not all what was asked obviously).

[Mess]

What I meant was, how do you contact them, how receptive are they, how much info will they provide without a court order, how much will they provide with a court order.

If you were starting from scratch again, would you do things differently - I mean about approaching Bell, Kajiji, etc? How would you do this the most efficiently without wasting a lot of your time?

[FaithandMorals]

I would ask for an order that she is required to surrender her computer to the court so that it can be examined. If she throws it out now, it shows again that she is trying to pervert justice.
I would also ask the court to require confirmation from the Ukrainian consular section if she has a current passport for her and the little one. Remember all embassies must abide by the law of the land they are in.

[Pursuinghappiness]

Mess, I agree...it will be interesting and may set some precedence.

How successful she is making the "I didn't send that even thought it was sent out from my email/IP address" argument will be interesting to see.

My thoughts are that similarly to any other case...if a litigant has a history of deception...its not going to go over very well.

On the other hand, if you had the type of situation where someone was a computer programmer or had extensive knowledge of how to hack into an email account..and a history of that type of privacy invasion...you could make an argument for this.

It will also be very interesting to see if she lies on her deposition under oath. Frankly, I'd hate to be in her shoes if she goes that route.

With the extensive use of social media...and more importantly, use of email between divorcing parties...it will be interesting to see what happens here.

My guess, she's probably screwed because she has a history of deception which tarnishes her overall credibility on every other issue.

[WorkingDAD]

I would ask for an order that she is required to surrender her computer to the court so that it can be examined. If she throws it out now, it shows again that she is trying to pervert justice.

It late for that. I have no doubt that all evidence already destroyed. She even changed all furniture in her apartment (base on photo she provided)

I would also ask the court to require confirmation from the Ukrainian consular section if she has a current passport for her and the little one. Remember all embassies must abide by the law of the land they are in.

That more like wishful thinking. Ukrainian consular could not care less about any Canadian court order. As far as I know.

[WorkingDAD]

Mess, I agree...it will be interesting and may set some precedence.

How successful she is making the "I didn't send that even thought it was sent out from my email/IP address" argument will be interesting to see.

My thoughts are that similarly to any other case...if a litigant has a history of deception...its not going to go over very well.

On the other hand, if you had the type of situation where someone was a computer programmer or had extensive knowledge of how to hack into an email account..and a history of that type of privacy invasion...you could make an argument for this.

you definatelly could but in our case we do not have such history. what we have only history of accusation of such which proven to be lies in court.

It will also be very interesting to see if she lies on her deposition under oath. Frankly, I'd hate to be in her shoes if she goes that route.

she lied already what I can prove. (at least in affidavits). In her previous motion (less than week after one I provided endorsement from) she bring up so called new evidence. Basically she said hey I was not home on time when email correspondence took place. And guess what OFW disclosure confirm that she was. and this is just one small example ...

With the extensive use of social media...and more importantly, use of email between divorcing parties...it will be interesting to see what happens here.

My guess, she's probably screwed because she has a history of deception which tarnishes her overall credibility on every other issue.

her position now is hey Google did not prove that it me so it;s not me - that not how it's work as I know. (I hope at least)

[FightingForFamily]

There will definitely be a dose of "on the balance of probability" which leans on each parties credibility. Her credibility is low already so I don't think most of her lies will stand up to scrutiny. If you can disprove several the rest of the house of cards will hopefully come down.

[arabian]

Agree with Mess - please give us more information. Quite interesting. Working Dad please go back to original request for info from Mess. Thanks

[WorkingDAD]

What I meant was, how do you contact them, how receptive are they, how much info will they provide without a court order, how much will they provide with a court order.

If you were starting from scratch again, would you do things differently - I mean about approaching Bell, Kajiji, etc? How would you do this the most efficiently without wasting a lot of your time?

Lets try ...
contact with all providers were over email. Mom's lawyer said once that she called to bell legal department and speak with their counsel. I did call once too. Note that we did not request from Bell anything yet - just some info what we need to do if we will have to. Important info here I would say that non of them requested to be designated as party and served with a motion so they would reply.

as for how receptive are they Kijiji was receptive to some extend. OFW was most cooperative. Google kind of disappointed but they can afford it right ? )

No infor were provided without court order - Google as example would not provide any logs even for my email. I think that has to do with that they can not 100% say that me who request info is the owner of the account even if I write to them from that account but that just my guess.

Disclosure orders where prepared by me. I was hoping mom's lawyer would help but that was big mistake - they just try to fight it to the end. At the and mom did sign it in the way I prepared (with minor changes) it but time was lost - more than month.


As I said Google did not really provide any useful info. Even IP addresses of the emails. Here is what they wrote with cover letter with their disclosure

Dear Sir or Madam,

We are in receipt of court order *****, dated 23 May 2012.
Pursuant to U.S. laws and the authority of the Superior Court of Justice
Family Court Branch in Ontario, please find attached registration
information and IP activity (to the extent available from our system) for
accounts [ *******@gmail.com ] and [ ******@gmail.com ],
requested in your communication to us dated 23 May 2012.

Additionally, as we understand it, you are seeking the contents of
communications. Absent a statutory exception, Google is precluded from
providing the contents of a subscriber's e-mail communications pursuant to
the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2702(a), as
construed by the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in
Theofel v. Farey-Jones, 359 F.3d 1066 (9th Cir. 2004). See also O'Grady v.
Superior Court of Santa Clara, 44 Cal. Rptr. 3d 72 (Cal. Ct. App. 2006).
We appreciate your understanding and cooperation.

This satisfies our compliance under the order.

By providing this response, Google Inc. does not waive any objections as
to jurisdiction or otherwise.

Best Regards,
Google Inc.
Legal Investigations Support

I think it has to do with wording of this paragraph in disclosure.

g. The contents of All and Any communications (e-mail, chat, et al) between the two aforementioned e-mail account(s) *******@gmail.com and ********@gmail.com sent and received by the accounts that were placed or stored in directories or files owned, used or controlled by the account at any time for the period from March 01, 2012 to May 01, 2012 including message headers information, Access type (Browser, mobile, POP3, IMAP, etc.), sender and receiver Location (IP address), Date/Time up to the seconds (including time zone), attachments (including all EXIF metadata of JPEG images et al) including but not limited to the following correspondence:

If I have to do it again and I hope I will not have to I would do a lot differently. I would come to court on Apr 5th with Anton Piller order to sized all digital devises from her and with prepared disclosure order or at least preservation order.

In my particular situation it is very hard to do it proper way as there is no time (and monies) as I was under serious stress not knowing when exactly she is planning to leave. It's like you wake up in the morning and do not know is he still here or not ...

[FaithandMorals]

I think we all have to pray hard that she gets professional help or is limited in her contact with your son before she does serious damage to him.
Makes me want to puke when I think about what some people will do to an innocent.

[WorkingDAD]

I think we all have to pray hard that she gets professional help or is limited in her contact with your son before she does serious damage to him.
Makes me want to puke when I think about what some people will do to an innocent.

Yep that is what really needed and I hope judge recognize it (thank you for mom to submit copy of her hospital record on Apr 05). Problem thou she will never accept it. She actualy writes to that I need doctor

[WorkingDAD]

Oh just forgot to tell

Last Friday I came to court and brought with me what I manage to put together from OFW disclosure what can be titled as timeline of events. OFW disclosure report is all over the place and it really hard to see picture for the day and for both users together. So I have to convert PDF to database so I can write queries and prepare report in the way we need it. To make easier for Judge to work with I have to show in report source of each record (for example OFW disclosure Page X record id ######). (took me some considerable time to make it).

I also added to database events which on a the record already or has paper trail like conversation over gmail, moms buying toys, taking bus etc ...

So I printed timeline just for March 29 what totaled 16 pages.

I gave it to mom so she can take a look. Mom called it bullshit and she and all her support group had a good laugh when they look on it.

so later mom said - OFW disclosure does prove her innocence. I said I would call it "Pegion story killer" (because mom said she was not home on particular time and disclosure confirm she was)

than mom said look what he prepared does not even match OFW disclosure and started pointing out that time in my report and in OFW does not match. after mom finished I just said - mom did not realized that last viewed section provided in UTC time (so -4 hours should be applied) and logins in Local time - she did not laugh after

That would be even better to have it during the trial but whatever - I have something else

[arabian]

I've been reading your posts and am quite curious about the process (as I didnt have to go through any child custody/access stuff).

Are you having to go before a judge and do a play-by-play, day-by-day, accounting of time you have spent with daughter? Excuse my ignorance but what is the point in all of this? Are you defending against an accusation of something?