"Medling" with other family - lice accusations

[dad2bandm]

Hey all.

Part of the ongoing hostility from my daughter's mom.

Brief history...to know the situation.

I have two kids. With two moms, from over the years.
My son's mom, (the first one), is fine. We co-parent and share custody of my son - no court involved. No drama, etc.

My daughter's mom (the 2nd one), is the one who dragged me to court back in the day, trying to get sole custody. We have joint - she's never liked that. Constant hostility, interference, etc.... Yes, they are two ends of the spectrum. lol.

So with my daughter's mom.... the latest "drama" from her, was interferring with my access again (missed my last weekend with her). Of course, this meant my daughter missed another weekend with her brother (my son) too. This was all due to an apparent "lice" infestation, which I didn't hear about, until she was already off at mom's. Mom blames me - it must have come from my "household" has been her stance, since she left me a nasty voice-mail about it, and all the subsequent nasty emails. That's ridiculous, as nobody in my household has had any "lice" issues, and we don't know anybody who has had it. I do check for stuff like that, with her being around other kids, etc. My daughter didn't show any signs of it, before she went off to mom's. I realize she could have got it anywhere, if she did have it.

Apparently, my daughter had it, and "mom" got it, etc. Problem is, she kept my daughter through my access time, and when I get her back, she's clear. I didn't get to see it, or have the chance to assess, or treat it. I'm not even sure if my daughter did have any lice issue? She could have I suppose, but I've been unable to see any issue since I got my daughter back, mid this week. I had my daughter checked by me, and others. She's fine. So I'm left having to take mom's word, which is not very reliable.

As part of all that, she's insistent it was from my house, and is saying I have an "unclean" house, etc. (she's tried claiming that before, it backfired on her, when she called FCS back in the day about it).

My daughter has no issue. I've stopped responding to mom, about her accusations, as I already told her we've had no issues here - she doesn't want to hear that I guess. Only thing is... she e-mailed my son's mom, out of the blue, to make these same accusations to my son's mom. (she doesn't know my son's mom, only knows "of her". She sent me an email threatening she would do so, if I didn't address the "health issues" at my house.

My son's mom told me she followed through on the threat, by apparently looking her up on Facebook, and sending a message off to her. My son's mom knows it's not true. She found it weird, that she got this message out of the blue, from my daughter's mom.

This really bugged me. I can ignore it, but is this over-stepping a legal thing here? I'm left wondering, what will be next? A call to my work, about some other accusation or something? A call to my daughter's soon-to-be school, about something?

Is this just more, to note in a future court action, to ask for it to stop?

[hadenough]

Lice actually prefer clean hair/hosts.

I'd go to "radio silence" on this one. She sounds like a drama queen. If in fact the daughter did get head-lice, school would be the most likely place that she picked it up. I would not engage your ex at all on this topic and it would be ridiculous to bring the matter to the court's attention. She cannot deny access whether the child has lice or not.

Ex #2 messaging Ex #1, while idiotic and inappropriate - it's not illegal. Your ex #1 has no obligation to respond to her - NOR should she. Now should she continue to bombard her with communications (whilst not getting any response) then that could be seen as harassment, in which case your ex #1 would have to address that with the police.

[arabian]

Holy shit! disengage... disengage

[arabian]

what's the dad's view in all of this or does it matter to you?

[Toutou]

OP is their dad....

[dad2bandm]

Yeah, I'm the dad. :-)

My view, is that if she actually had lice, then I would take care of her, and treat it too when my daughter is with me, if it was an issue. Like I said, I'm not even sure she had any, as she's clear once I was finally able to see her. The only household I know of, that had a "lice" issue, seems to be hers.

My involvement with this has been only in having access interferred with again, on what seems to be Mom's argument that there were "health or hygeine" concerns, at my house, which of course, are ridiculous. I made sure to email her in response, to let her know we've had no issues at my house, and that neither my son or I have issues, or anyone else I know, and that was it, and I've kept all her other response e-mails. I also did email Mom after I finally got my daughter back, and told her I checked her over, and could see nothing - she was clear. I also advised her, I gave the "1-week after" follow-up treatment, as a precaution (giving her the benefit of the doubt), and the very next day, when my daughter is back with her, I got an e-mail saying that I didn't check her very well then, as "mom" found more. And of course, they must have came from my house. (rolling eyes)

I know, she can't deny access like this, but this has happened in the past too (I haven't gone to court yet, about it, as that seems to be what she's gunning for - sabotaging joint custody), but she seems to get away with it or keep doing it, for what are in her head, valid reasons. I show up to collect my daughter at access times, and she interferes. In the past, cops were involved for "assistance in breakdown of communication", and of course that is all they can do, without an enforcement order, but I end up walking away with another access interference, and Mom tries to paint it as me being the one causing an issue, by even showing up. But it's my daughter's access time with me? Mom has also told me that too "cops can't do anything, unless you get an enforcement order!". Why on earth, would I want that?

I'm glad, both moms are not like this. :-)

[HammerDad]

For your ex #1, I'd recommend to her that if she should get messages from ex #2, that she reply with a message for ex#2 to please refrain from contacting her again in the future unless it is an emergency.

How you deal with ex#2 is to first ignore the drama. Second you document any denials of parenting time. Third, when she pulls stunts like this again and emails you stating you aren't getting your parenting time because of some illness/issue etc., I simply reply with:

Dear Satan,

Thank you for advising me that [child] is/has [whatever].

Unfortunately I do not agree with your position that I will be unable to exercise my parenting time on X date due to such condition. According to section X of our court order, I am entitled to parenting time. Section X of the order does not provide that such parenting time is conditional on the child being in perfect health. As a parent, I am capable of tending to [childs] needs in both sickness and in health. Further, being a parent is more than looking after the child while they are healthy.

I also disagree with your position that the [issue] is my fault or resulted during my parenting time. Children are susceptible due getting all sorts of illnesses simply by the vast number of other children they interact with everyday. I don't accuse you or your household of being responsible for [childs] illnesses when [child] comes over for my parenting time, and as such I respectfully request the same considersation.

In closing, it is my intention to exercising my regularly scheduled parenting time. I do not agree with your unilateral decision to withhold the child from my parenting time in contravention of clause X of the court order. As such, I will be at the prescribed place at the prescribed time for our childs exchange. Should [child] not be exchanged due to your unilateral decision to withhold the child, I will treat such interferrance as a denial of access and will seek the appropriate remedy.

I am willing to consider rescheduling my parenting time to a time mutually agreeable. Should we fail to find a time mutually agreeable, the regular parenting time schedule shall continue.

Thank you,

Superdad.

rinse and repeat as necessary.

Should she actually follow through with denying you your time, document it. Email her asking for make up time due to her unilateral decision to deny you your parenting time. Should she not give you makeup time, document a few instances and then take her to court for contempt.

[KayD]

Hi dad2bandm,

As a mom, I do sympathize with the anxiety felt by moms when kids are ill/infected. However, there is a better and more logical way to deal with these issues rather than not letting kid go to dad. Above all, you need to try to keep lines of communication open without letting her push you around. With some people, it's a tightrope walk, I know.

I'm thinking the easiest, drama-less, way to deal with issues of a medical nature is this:

1) Send an email as given by HammerDad.

2) Include paragraph asking for results of medical evaluation and/or name of doctor where daughter was taken by ex, if taken to someone other than family doctor. Be nice. Say that you are 100% on-board with keeping daughter healthy and you'd like to follow up with doctor on what you can do to ensure your home remains lice-free. You're a concerned dad who wants to speak to doctor. If it's a family doctor, contact doctor directly.

3) Invite her to view your home if she has lice concerns. She will not do it but you show you are accommodating and wanting to work co-operatively with her.

4) When you see daughter first time after incident (withheld parenting time) take her to a walk-in clinic/ family doctor right away to have medical (lice) issue assessed by a medical professional. Get results in writing (this will cost you $20 but well worth it).

Let mom do the drama bit. Disengage. You get back-up letters from professionals every time. If this continues and becomes more severe, and if it ever goes to court, don't smear her but state situation and pull out back-up letters. Courts will see right through the drama. Mention if she provided "make-up parenting time" or not.

Cheers,
KayD

[Tayken]

3) Invite her to view your home if she has lice concerns. She will not do it but you show you are accommodating and wanting to work co-operatively with her.

With a highly conflicted individual as described they will come. Not only will they come they will bring "friends and family" with them to cause more conflict generally.

4) When you see daughter first time after incident (withheld parenting time) take her to a walk-in clinic/ family doctor right away to have medical (lice) issue assessed by a medical professional. Get results in writing (this will cost you $20 but well worth it).

Be very aware of your current court order before doing this. You may be obligated to inform the other parent of all clinical encounters.

Let mom do the drama bit. Disengage. You get back-up letters from professionals every time. If this continues and becomes more severe, and if it ever goes to court, don't smear her but state situation and pull out back-up letters. Courts will see right through the drama. Mention if she provided "make-up parenting time" or not.

Letters are not admissible evidence and under the rules of evidence are hearsay. A letter can't be cross examined so if you want to find the doctor on the stand I highly recommend you don't try to engaged clinicians as "negative advocates" in support of your concerns.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[dad2bandm]

Thanks HammerDad! A great example...I'll tailor my responses to her, in the future using this.

Thanks KayD. I understand a mom's concerns too, when they are valid. I suggested the Dr. too, when I first heard of this (as my daughter was with Mom when told), but I was told I'm "stupid" to suggest that, as "you don't bring a kid to the Dr. for lice!". Yes, you can get over-the-counter stuff too, if this was an issue, so this is perhaps a bad example, but the responses from her, were unacceptable, and she was totally against it. The Dr. has been a road-block in the past too. (Mom had done damage there already). I ended up having to get a letter/and copy of our agreement there, to show what our custody situation is, to get info. Of course, they were advised much differently from Mom, about our custody agreement. Same thing happened at dentist office too.

I'll note any suggestions from her, about "makeup-time". I've always had to ask for make-up visits in the past, and that has been contentous for her as well. But I noticed this last-time, she threw in a "we can discuss make-up time", however it was totally conditional on my "cleaning up my house" and "admitting there is a hygeine issue" at my residence. So it was obviously not discussed, as she didn't like my answer on that.

Thanks for all the advice. I think the best advice is for me to keep noting/documenting these incidents, and to use the communication suggestions you guys noted, more so.

Likely, some court enforcement in the future too.

[hadenough]

Also look into Tools to simplify shared child custody. - Our Family Wizard - child custody, parenting time

Yes, HD gave a great sample letter. Definitely worth keeping as a template. Just remember to remove the word "Satan" lol

[dad2bandm]

Tayken,

"with a highly conflicted individual as described they will come. Not only will they come they will bring "friends and family" with them to cause more conflict generally."

How right you are. The first time she tried bringing this up, about my household being in a state of uncleanliness, etc, back when my daughter was younger... she demanded on inspecting my house, before my daughter was allowed to come back (against our access arrangements, I know). And she wanted to bring her best friend.

Suffice to say, I did not agree to that. lol. She ended up dragging FCS into it, and they obviously had no issues with my house, and she ended up having to take some "parenting course" it sounds like. I was told very little by FCS, at that time, as it no longer involved me. But it sounds like it backfired on her.

Very high conflict...over the simplest of issues.

[KayD]

Letters are not admissible evidence and under the rules of evidence are hearsay. A letter can't be cross examined so if you want to find the doctor on the stand I highly recommend you don't try to engaged clinicians as "negative advocates" in support of your concerns.

Wasn't aware of that. My Ontario family court lawyer asked for letters (medical, counselor, neighbour) and submitted them with the documents. Judge referred to them so I'm assuming they were read. There was no indication that they were not admissible. I'm talking about cases (conferences) in front of a judge, not a trial situation, of course. Could there be a difference?

[dad2bandm]

Yeah, "Satan" would likely not help diffuse anything...lol...but somedays, it doesn't seem far from the truth. :-)

[Tayken]

I understand a mom's concerns too, when they are valid. I suggested the Dr. too, when I first heard of this (as my daughter was with Mom when told), but I was told I'm "stupid" to suggest that, as "you don't bring a kid to the Dr. for lice!".

1. You bring a child to a doctor for any medical concern that you do not understand or know how to treat. It is their job.

2. It sounds like you are dealing with an over-anxious parent in the matter. I am assuming that neither of you are clinicians so, taking the child to the doctor was the best resolution.

Yes, you can get over-the-counter stuff too, if this was an issue, so this is perhaps a bad example, but the responses from her, were unacceptable, and she was totally against it.

But, you have to remember how a judge will view the whole situation if brought before the court. It is really an irrelivant topic and if there can't be consensus on something as basic the judge will scold both parents generally.

The Dr. has been a road-block in the past too. (Mom had done damage there already). I ended up having to get a letter/and copy of our agreement there, to show what our custody situation is, to get info.

Clinicians need better training on what constitutes "custody" and what constitutes "access". They don't read their own policies from their governing body.

Of course, they were advised much differently from Mom, about our custody agreement. Same thing happened at dentist office too.

One can only imagine what is said to the school and other professionals. This is how a highly conflicted individual attempts to "gain control" over the other parent. Transparent as glass.

I'll note any suggestions from her, about "makeup-time". I've always had to ask for make-up visits in the past, and that has been contentous for her as well. But I noticed this last-time, she threw in a "we can discuss make-up time", however it was totally conditional on my "cleaning up my house" and "admitting there is a hygeine issue" at my residence. So it was obviously not discussed, as she didn't like my answer on that.

An alternative would be to have a professional organization come in and inspect your home and provide evidence that there is no issues. Considering the conflict I am surprised that the other parent hasn't called CAS on you. If they call, don't be surprised...

Thanks for all the advice. I think the best advice is for me to keep noting/documenting these incidents, and to use the communication suggestions you guys noted, more so.

Likely, some court enforcement in the future too.

The matter has to be really serious for the courts to do something. Bickering between parents will just get a judge mad and a lecture. The children have to be at risk of emotional harm and/or physical and/or neglected and/or abused for things to change generally.

V.K. v. T. S., 2011 ONSC 4305 (CanLII)
Date: 2011-09-09
Docket: DF 2217/09
URL: CanLII - 2011 ONSC 4305 (CanLII)
Citation: V.K. v. T. S., 2011 ONSC 4305 (CanLII)

[72] While some measure of communication and cooperation between the parties is necessary to support a joint custody order, the court is not required to apply a standard of perfection in assessing the ability of the parents to work together. As Quinn, J. remarked in Brook v. Brook, “the cooperation needed is workable, not blissful; adequate, not perfect.”[21]

[73] A mere statement by one party that there is an inability to communicate will not be sufficient to preclude a joint custody order. The court must carefully consider the parties’ past and current parenting relationship to obtain the “big picture” respecting the parties’ ability to communicate, rather than simply relying on allegations of conflict by one or both of the parties, or a snapshot of the situation that exists at the time of trial.[22]

[74] The existence of conflict and strife between the parties from time to time will not necessarily preclude the court from making an Order for joint custody. The question to be determined is whether the conflict between the parties is impacting or likely to impact on the well-being of the children. If the evidence indicates that the parties, despite their conflict with each other, have been able to communicate, shelter the children from the conflict reasonably well, and put the children’s interests ahead of their own when necessary, an order for joint custody may be appropriate.[23] The question for the court to determine is “whether a reasonable measure of communication and cooperation is in place, and is achievable in the future, so that the best interests of the child can be ensured on an ongoing basis.”[24]

Good Luck!
Tayken