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Old 01-14-2013, 12:11 AM
alienator_witness alienator_witness is offline
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Default New here - parental alienation

I am new here. I came here to find information and to see if what I witnessed over the years is normal part of divorce and child support. I have never gone through a divorce, but the woman I love who I call my significant other is going through hell with her ex-husband over custody and child support. How could someone, so honest and ethical, be treated so badly by her own children and family law. The problem is the pain and despair that my significant other has endured over the years at the hands of her ex-husband and to a certain extent these days his lawyer. They were divorced 10 years ago and shared custody of children. It was in the court order. She fell sick to the turmoil and stress a few years ago, and the ex-husband unilaterally took the children and never allowed them back saying they are old enough to decide they dont want to be part of her life. Telephone conversations and visits were not allowed. He made sure the children would not visit and made every attempt to short change any visit with excuses. He bullied children to not give out their cell phone numbers, and once the daughter did and was punished. They are now 18 and 16. She feels she has lost the children and she has. They were her life.

He then decided to come after her saying he is owed child support according to the table. She has paid out of love of her children. However, there are so many lies told by the ex and his lawyer, it is beyond my belief what I see. All these letters I have seen are so full of lies, and I discussed with her lawyer and he says it is without prejudice. This is a mockery of the legal system to outright lie and bully someone who is honest and does not want confrontation. How can such things take place in a legal letter written by a lawyer?! There is no court order for child support but she pays. He has broken many of the items in the original court order.

Through the 10 years I have seen the situation, I witnessed the ex-husband make life hard for her at every turn. All the little things like calling and blaming her for things when he himself has done worse for mistakes adds up. To make her look bad in the eyes of children is one thing, but to prevent contact so no emotional bonding can take place is in my book child abuse. He knows the kind of heart she has and constantly uses bullying tactics. He despised having to share custody. It did not seem like it was for the love or good of the children, but for revenge for the mistake they made in getting married. He knows the children were her world, and started the parental alienation. He never followed the court order that each have parenting rights. He always willed his desires. When he got the chance for the big move he did, taking advantage of her when she was in a vulnerable situation. He knew she was vulnerable and increased the harassment to the point she fell ill to mental illness. He told me many times on the phone that he did not ever want the kids in our house again. He also called one day and said today the kids did not want to hear her name anymore and was happy. He was calling to peep on whether she was recovering so he could plan the next tactic. The call was to find out how to keep the children away for more time and to tell me not to contact the children to tell them she is getting better. Information had to go through him and he would tell them. It was our mistake not to challenge his unilateral decision to keep kids with him with no contact. However, she felt some shame in the breakdown, and she wanted to recover fully. That was a mistake that we must live with now, as during that time the alienation process was in full steam, and we cant undo the harm

Well after the many years of parental alienation, the children do not visit their mother anymore, maybe once every couple months if that, to collect gifts on their birthdays and ask for shopping trips. She pays child support but the children do not appear to be getting clothing etc. However, his house has seen many renovations, driveway redone, remarried and supports his new wifes child, puts up a big wedding ring etc. He will not pay for hockey that his son wants to play though, so the mother paid but wont get any reimbursement. He says it is not a justified extra activity and it was only done to buy her child back.

We can live with some of this, but the thing that burns me up is using parental alienation as a means of getting child support and revenge. The law says if the children reside with the dad, the mom must pay the table amount. However, the law should reinforce that having a mother and father is important as well. There does not appear to be any discussion on the ruthless tactic. No evidence to support the childrens claims has been in lawyers letter. The children appear to be afraid to contradict their dad. The son will be 19 and really makes no attempts to be a son to his mom. She has gone through surgeries, birthdays, and special days with no visits or sympathy. The son, sensing he would not be able to play hockey because his dad wont pay, then started coming around more to bribe her mom into registering him and buying all new hockey equipment. After this, he did not visit for 3 months and had the gall to still support his dad when the mom tried asking for reimbursement for half the cost. This is not right to teach your children to look down on a parent and take advantage of them. They had the gall to say in a letter that the dad had bought all previous equipment. Ahem.I know it is a lie, because I had bought 90% of all the equipment that he has used since he was 9 years old!! How can someone lie like that!

A 19 year old who says he does not want to support her and in essence does not want to be child of the mom, still gets all the advantages of his mom loving him. She has to pay 50% of education costs. She has paid for his hockey. She still buys him clothes and shoes that the father has not bought even with the more than $1200 each month he receives in child support. All other extra costs are added in addition to the $1200. His salary is better than the average Canadian. This child support table etc. is not consistent with the average person and family. If they were still married, the ex would have been strong willed and penny pinched and the child would not have what he has. It is because he is child of divorce that he can be lazy and not seek student loans and work harder in school. He is only in school, accepted at the last minute, because he has no idea of what he wants to really do. Of course his father wants him there, because he gets money to help pay his mortgage etc., and does not have to account for how the money is spent (not on child). A child of an intact family may not even have the opportunity to go to post-secondary education even though they could much more skilled, have more desire to succeed in a career, and have more intellect. Such a child would have to work hard to get bursaries or student loans. Why are the laws providing more support for children of divorce?

Sorry if this is so long. If I actually wrote all that I have seen, it would be a book. I am not an adversarial type of person, but seeing the things that have gone on, it would be best to learn to be more I think. In a way, I was also a victim of the parental alienation and I was a target as well by being associated to my significant other. Bottom line is I am here to understand and gain more knowledge into what appears to be a nasty area known as family law. It just seems so unethical the way lawyers scribble out letters and protects the client through lies. The lawyer representing the ex-husband in question is a lawyer who sought public office many times. Now that is scary. To elect someone who bullies, threatens, and lies from one threatening letter to another, with no reasonable logic from each letter would be a big mistake. If he would be elected and takes office in a public position what kind of back room games would be played with public funds and decisions!

Thanks for your time! It helps to tell my side of the story. It may mirror someone elses. It is depressing to see what people go through, especially when children are involved. The child loses a role model in some cases, and the mother or father loses all the good and love they provided for so many years. When someone is out to get the other through revenge and satisfaction, everything becomes unfair.
Old 01-14-2013, 12:56 AM
Mess Mess is offline
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Child support is the right of the child, it doesn't need a court order and your SO hasn't done anything special by paying child support. It is something we all do, we don't get medals for it.

Your attitude toward the child support makes me skeptical of the rest of the story. I am sure there is more than point of view here. I am sorry your SO has lost contact with her children.
Old 01-14-2013, 01:33 AM
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arabian arabian is offline
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I am sorry to hear about your family's 10 yr ordeal. It must be very difficult for you.

Your partner's children are now of adult age. You realize you cannot force them to want to have a relationship with their mother.

I think the best thing you can do now is to encourage your partner to plan for her next stage of her life. The children are at an age now when they can decide if they want to be a part of her life or not. Taking the next step to disengaging from legal matters would be a good start. For one thing I would not respond to any legal letter whatsoever. Only respond in kind to legal notices of motions that require a response or an attendance at court. The same would go for any correspondence or communication from the ex.

Have your partner make it very clear that the children are free to contact her at any time but that she sees no reasons to have any communication whatsoever with the ex or his lawyer.

I suspect that once the poisonous communication ceases between your partner and the ex, the children might have the time and unfettered opportunity to finally make their own decisions on whether or not they wish to spend time with their mother.

You say that the children were her whole life. That's fine but children do grow up and move on (hopefully) and there does come a time when one has to plan for an empty nest.

Perhaps being more forward-thinking will be a better way to approach the future. Do not allow negative, high-conflict people to enter into your lives.
Old 01-14-2013, 02:16 AM
involveddad75 involveddad75 is offline
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I am sorry for your loss, but I would refrain from using the words Parental Alienation. I have learned it’s not that cut and dry.
PA has become a catch phrase that people cling to.
Never refer to PAS or PA, but you can describe the symptoms, such as brainwashing the children against you, you can mention how your wife’s ex puts her down in front of the children. Don’t ever put down the other, but describe the actions they have done. You have to lead the court to make that judgement for themselves.

A good friend told me once that there are other things that happen before PA
There is
Parental Alienation (mild, moderate, severe)
Parental Manipulation (mild, moderate, severe)
Parental Interference (mild, moderate, severe)
By describing the actions of what the children are experiencing, you can determine what form of abuse is actually occurring.

The children in this case are of an age where the courts will not force them to do something they don’t want to do. There is a good book out there called Divorce Poison, it’s a good read.
Old 01-14-2013, 08:54 AM
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hadenough hadenough is offline
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A "few years ago" when your partner fell ill/sick from the stress and turmoil you say the ex-husband "unilaterally took over" the kids. How did he do that? Did he just pick them up one day and not return with them?

The obvious question is why was nothing done at that time? You were together, as a couple - what efforts were put forth at that time to put the situation right? She had your unwavering support, presumably - what was the game plan to put an end to his telephone calls, harassment etc? It sounds like he did whatever the hell he wanted to and got no resistance, legally or otherwise.

Now it's a "few years later" - and what's happening? He wants to take her back to Court?

As for her ex's lawyer, you sound so shocked that he would be a "bully" etc. He sounds (to me) like a perfect candidate to run for office. Politicians don't exactly have the best reputations. Watch the news on any given night and that's not too hard to figure out.

You wrote that you have spoken to her ex's lawyer. Why would you be speaking to her ex's lawyer? What about her lawyer? What's the story with the lawyer she had (or has)?

It's always a shame to hear that even after 10 years of separation, this situation even exists. Your partner should have cut communication with her ex-husband long ago and focused on her mental health and her relationship with the kids. It is beyond me why anyone, especially feeling so fragile would continue to speak to someone who (according to you) inflicts so much anxiety and stress onto another.

The others here are correct in that the age of the children is an important factor in all of this. Again, it causes me to wonder why nothing was done sooner.

On a final note: Lawyer's like your partners ex-husband's are plentiful. Don't be so shocked, and lots of people (including lawyers) lie too. Some of them quite regularly.

Last edited by hadenough; 01-14-2013 at 09:06 AM.
Old 01-19-2013, 09:13 PM
momliz momliz is offline
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There are things about your partners story I can relate to. Last July my ex decided to come get my 14 year old son and keep him and not let me see him or speak to him. Friday we had a case conference and the judge gave him crap and said he has to let me see my son. So now I have a court order saying I get to see my son every other weekend so basically what I'm saying is your partner should try to get this thing in front of a judge. Chances are you can't make someone 18+ see you but I'm pretty sure she could get court ordered visitation with the 16 year old. It's usually seen in the best interests of a child to have a relationship with both parents.
Old 01-20-2013, 04:35 PM
frenchy frenchy is offline
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Its situation like this that destroyed kids and usely one parents. Usely fathers, i am suprises it happpend to a women but its usely not the case. We need the law to change and have equal patenting. That would solve most probleme like this unless one parents is not fit to be a parents. But their is no reason for the child to lose a father or a mothers for no reason.
Old 01-21-2013, 03:44 PM
Frustrated_DAD Frustrated_DAD is offline
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You may want to check this one:
It is not good when both Parties are posting to the same site.

Posted: Today, 03:25 PM (21 Jan 2013)

CanLII & Teens
Old 01-21-2013, 03:53 PM
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Tayken Tayken is offline
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Just to be fair, the OP may want to read this thread:
Old 01-26-2013, 11:27 AM
alienator_witness alienator_witness is offline
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Default Thank you for responding

Thank you to everyone who posted information. Sorry I did not respond quicker. I am trying to move on and dwell on things. I hope this be my last rant if you can call it that. I know not everyone will not agree with my thoughts. I can only give my point of view, be it right or wrong.

It was all useful information. I also feel all the pain of other people involved in divorces and child custody. I put myself in the shoes of other people, in particular my SO, and it is very painful to see people lose their children, and sometimes forever. I have read posts by others about their problems. It just makes thinking about it even worse. So it is widespread and when your emotions are pitted against someone, the worse can and will come out.

We made the mistake of not escalating and getting a lawyer 3 years ago. It is too late to dwell on it. She was recovering from sickness in part caused by situation, and legal action may not have been the best at the time. I can see right now, she is basically giving into whatever is asked. She does not want confrontation or court proceedings. I think it may and probably would have been used against her because she was overwhelmed by the thought of losing her children. It is in hindsight now. I don't think we are very good at confrontations and playing the game of lies either. It is done and we now have today. However, never in our minds, would the thought of 2 very loving children to their mother for 13 and 16 years changing to hate in such a short time they were not with her. Part of this whole thing was to find the truth. Why and how did we fail as parents?

This is not about child support for her. She pays the table amount. If she could pay more to be able to see the children, she probably would. She blames herself for getting sick and losing that period of bonding which lead to what we have today. I see what is happening, and from my view her guilt is wrong. That was the main purpose for me writing.

I have to admit I lived a sheltered life up until now. I was socialized and taught that you never strand a family member because of sickness. So my views may be skewed or just not normal thinking. It is what I grew up with and how my siblings act. Again we are probably not normal, as my brother suffers from mental illness as well. However, he has episodes monthly. My SO has had 1 breakdown in the last 14 years. All brought on by stressful situations. So there is a difference. I have seen my brother in this state since I was 5 years old, or old enough to have any grasp of what was going on. We grew up in some tense moments, but never ever, did we ever think to turn our backs. It was how our family operated. I have seen in our society that it is often the family that run away from a mentally ill person, it is often a stranger or friend that continues the support to get them back to normalcy. Our parents have since passed away, we have carried on the support to him. If one of our parents became sick, had surgery etc. we would be at their side no matter what. It was this that when I saw my SO, already feeling guilty for the kids, and going through 2 surgeries and sickness and I did not see her children call or visit. That had that had me searching and looking up in the air. What in the world has she done that were so bad.

We have heard the responses from the children that "you will get sick again and don't want to be part of it". We have heard, "you are the cause of the divorce, he would never do such a thing as wanting it." ”The money you give dad does not cover recreation.” “You are the reason why dad has a high blood pressure!” There is much more, but we better leave it and move on for our own health and sanity. Hey we have high BP too. This may also bring skepticism though. Is this guy telling the truth? Why would they say that. How could this happen? So is this the way the children really feel and see as the truth?

It would be best for me to not dwell on things and treat it like being afflicted with a sickness. We will all encounter difficult situations, be it cancer, or whatever. We will have to deal with it that way. I did learn some things from all this. Others have problems as well, be it custody, payments, or spousal support. I do feel that if children have not chosen not to reside with you, there will be doubt or skepticism of the situation from lawyers, and other people. I myself when I review things over am skeptical that it could come to this. You must have did something wrong to the children that they do not to want to be with you?

So thank you all. The best advice I got was to move on with life. You got the chance to be a parent, but unfortunately something went wrong. You missed out on some important years, missed high school graduation, missed wanting to learn about their grades, miss helping them in school, preach ideas that you think will be important in life. You hope it can be recouped later. At this age, there will be no second chance to be a parent to growing children again. Provide the support in any way you can, and hope that when they are old enough to reflect, they do feel and understand that you helped them out. You were not physically with them, but you never gave up on them. It remains to be seen. I would not wager on this chance from what I have seen however. There appears to be a thinking pattern on their part that we are evil for some reason.

Everyone take care and good luck.
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