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Old 07-20-2012, 12:11 AM
knackered knackered is offline
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Default what happens when amendment doesn't follow old agreement rules??

So as you know I've done a lot of ranting on here over my child care expense situation.

The original separation agreement dated 2008 read that there were no section 7 expenses, if such were to occur, ex was to notify me, provide me with receipt and I had 20 days to pay.

Ex informed me of child care/asked me to pay in 2011......I told her I agreed and would once I received the receipts. She refused to give me receipts.
She then got a lawyer and filed a court motion for increase in child support and section 7 expenses.

I got a lawyer.
I noticed that the ex and her lawyer tore out a page of our separation agreement before submitting it to the court. You can clearly see the agreement goes from page 3 to page 5...4 is missing.
Page 4 read that there were currently no section 7 expenses, if such were to arise, she was to inform me, provide me with receipt and I had 20 days to pay.

I wanted to fight it in court---I was sure a judge would see that they had deliberately taken that page out, as she never provided me any receipts--the agreement said she had to....I thought it was a no-brainer, that I would win on it easily and not have to start paying child care until she produced receipts.

My lawyer told me that we could not accuse them of deliberately taking that page out and that we had to give them the benefit of the doubt.
My lawyer said she didn't feel that I would win if we went to court because section 7/child care expenses are the law.

Ex ended up producing a child care receipt for 2011......My lawyer advised me that I had to pay back pay for that and back pay for child support for I am currently close to $4000 in arrears for the 2011 back pay babysitting, plus $600 in arrears for the 2011 back pay child support increase and currently have to pay ongoing babysitting of approximately $200-$300(with summer) a month and $606 child support.

Now I just looked over my old separation agreement again---How none of us noticed this last paragraph on the page that ex and her lawyer tore out---but the last paragraph reads

"Until the support is adjusted by an amending agreement, court order or arbitration award, Bob will continue to pay the child support and his contribution to the children's special and extraordinary expenses under the parties' most recent written agreement, court order or arbitration award"

Does this not mean that I should not have had to give her any back pay at all?

By me reading sounds like she shouldn't have got the increase/or babysitting expenses until we signed that new amendment in 2012 and there should have been no back pay!!!

Is there anything I can do about this??? Or am I f#cked because I followed my lawyers advice and signed the amendment giving her back pay.
Old 07-20-2012, 01:05 AM
Mess Mess is offline
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She gave you the receipt for the child care, you had to pay that, and within 20 days.

My opinion is that your lawyer's advice was good, that if you had gone to court you would have been required to pay the expenses. As well, the child support amount would have been updated at that time.

What has happened is that you are paying the share of child care that you are responsible for, and you are paying child support according to your current income.

I'm not sure what it is you want? You want to not pay for your child's daycare and continue to pay support according to your previous, lower, income? How would you have justified this to a judge?
Old 07-20-2012, 02:21 AM
knackered knackered is offline
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According to my original agreement.....I don't think I should have had to pay the back pay, since the original agreement stated that I was to pay according to that agreement until a new one was made...the new one wasn't made until I shouldn't have had to pay more until 2012.

I have a lot of resentment towards my ex and her family nickel and diming me/pulling scams and succeeding every time! (This current one...she managed to manipulate the agreement--taking a page out of what she submitted to court and currently manipulating the child care receipt procedure in our amendment)

The back story scams
1) Her father telling me if I wanted to separate from his daughter(my ex) and didn't want to be responsible for the $1300 monthly mortgage, that I had to sign the house over to him and sign the separation agreement they got made up (They told me I had 24 hours to seek legal advice, then they took my car and left/leaving our 2 children 1 and 4 at the time with me)
They returned with a separation agreement drawn up from a lawyer (I was stupid and let them bully me in to signing it...and I will pay forever for it)
I solely put $30,000 down payment and paid that $1300 monthly mortgage for 3 years and didn't get a cent out of I was in the negative of $70,000 right off the bat!

2) A week before I was supposed to move out, the cops show up at the house stating that the ex's mother called them and said I threatened ex's life....I get escorted out of the house---this means I didn't get any of my personal property or content division from the house. (I had been laid off/was unemployed when ex did lawyer said I would have been entitled to spousal support from my ex doing this to me---but of course she covered herself in the separation agreement with that and neither of us can seek spousal support)

3) She collected child support. I got behind for a year/working minimum wage/being unemployed. I owed her $4000. As soon as I got a decent job again and took out my rrsp's I gave her $ I only owed her $2000...we made a deal that I would pay her extra a month in child support until it was paid back (soon after that FRO contacts me saying ex told them I had never ever paid her and owed her $7000! they begin taking half my pay cheques for the year....ex succeeds in scamming me out of $4,000 that way---I only had $1700 in cheques to prove---ex said she needed cash for the rest I gave her....stupid me thought we were civil during this time and could trust her--stupid, stupid I know!)

After she succeeds with the FRO scam and collects all that is when she asks for babysitting fees without providing receipts....then she gets a lawyer and 7 months later magically comes up with a receipt for 2011---funny how she couldn't produce any for 2008, 2009 or 2010 though (seems like her and her babysitter are doing under the table....and babysitter helped her out when she knew lawyers were involved and she needed a receipt)

We sign amendment, ex is supposed to be providing me with a monthly receipt advising me of monthly amount...I then have 20 days to give my proportional share.
Instead ex is e-mailing me, telling me the amounts I owe.
When I complained to lawyer that I had received no receipts from writes her lawyer a letter and all of a sudden ex provides me a receipt...but it is a receipt for the cheque amount I gave her and no signature on the receipt.
April and May---no receipts given to me again/ just e-mails.
As far as I"m concerned I should be getting copies of receipts given to her from her babysitter proving that the kids are in babysitting and that ex is paying the bill to the babysitter each month.

Now I have Revenue Canada contacting me saying they don't believe I gave her $14,000 in child support because ex only claimed $4,800 (Just got my record from FRO on that and getting that all ready to send in to government)

Oh and court order states that babysitting arrears will be handled through FRO......ex tells me I have to give her post dated cheques and goes as far as creating a false minutes of settlement/changing the wording that was in it saying I have to give her post dated cheques.

It's freakin' ridiculous.
Old 07-20-2012, 08:55 AM
now i see the moon now i see the moon is offline
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Seems to me you have an Agreement that tells you you don't have to pay section 7 expenses--at the moment of signing. To me, this is your law, which overrides The Law. It's your agreement and the judge agreed it was reasonable at the time.

However, then come childcare expenses. Your agreement provides for this possibility and you would be required to pay. But she produced no receipts. In my opinion, when she finally produced the receipts, then you were required to pay within 20 days, for the receipts she produced. At least you had some forewarning that they were coming.

The last paragraph of your agreement says that if she goes to court then you'll be officially ordered to pay and the amount will be officially adjusted. And it seems retroactively. Because she notified you and eventually produced a receipt as per your agreement.

I don't know. it seems like the two paragraphs you mention sort of contradict one another. And I assume a judge is going to look at it and say that you each owe proportionately to income. Because it's fair for the child(ren)

It wouldn't be fair to the kids for her to have to wait until an actual court order to have the amount you have to pay start accruing. Because the expenses are still there and the child(ren) need support in the meantime. So retroactive seems reasonable.

I didn't read your back story so if there's anything in there of relevance to my above thoughts, I'm sorry, I missed it.
Old 07-20-2012, 09:50 AM
HammerDad HammerDad is offline
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"Until the support is adjusted by an amending agreement, court order or arbitration award, Bob will continue to pay the child support and his contribution to the children's special and extraordinary expenses under the parties' most recent written agreement, court order or arbitration award"
The courts generally take the position that it is the payors responsibility to notify the payee of any increases in income in order to update c/s. So while the agreement hadn't been amended, you had an obligation to tell her about any increases in salary, thus creating the arrears from the point you didn't advise of the increase in salary.
Old 07-20-2012, 11:16 AM
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MrToronto MrToronto is offline
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Court is famous for finding reasons that both parties are to blame and yeah they'll get you on that item...if your lawyer was smart (I have no idea how old the child is) he/she could of stuck there foot in the door and put a review clause in your new order....I say this because babysitting needs are going to change as the child ages....FRO being the mindless org that it is will keep taking the same amount until the child turns 100 years old.....what happens when the child only needs before and after school soon , that's cheaper...the sad part is even though it's cheaper the ex will sign the child up for other special expenses to maintian the cash flow (it's typical)....keep ur ex totally informed on your a few years you'll be paying over support ...ask yearly for her disclosure (she has to provide it)...when the child hits full time school and your still paying the fulltime daycare then it's fraud...keep a record of what activities the child does and get ready for the "new" activities, the new activities aren't a slam dunk like daycare, it has to be proven by her as special and why she needs the money...all in all it's a waiting game, it's not fair to the support payor and the system breeds lazy oppurtunists, with the FRO being it's's not your fault that you have to struggle for justice...then there's the pay and shut-up people which is typical but they never say for how long or what to do when dealing with a thief
Old 07-20-2012, 04:11 PM
knackered knackered is offline
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All answers make sense to me now!

And yes MrToronto she is a thief with all the past scams she has succeeded at in stealing money from me that I legally did not owe her.

I understand that the current prices I am paying to her are guideline/for the kids........just sux that the money doesn't get spent on the kids....and it hinders my time with the kids/meaning that I no longer have money to spend on them or do much with them, since I give it all to their mother now---who doesn't spend it on them----so my kids are the ones losing out and will only continue to lose out in the I can't afford to have any savings to give them for their future.

Old 07-20-2012, 04:13 PM
knackered knackered is offline
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Oh and after reading your post MrToronto....I am considering myself very lucky that our current babysitting is not through FRO. I give her a cheque each month for that----and again she's been manipulating that procedure....

after reading all this, I'm thinking maybe I should just keep shutting up and paying her/not complain about her not giving me proper seems people like her win no matter what.

I rant/whine about it on here...LOL.... but in real life I've been paying/letting her get away with everything.
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